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Gurdeep Rivenvald III

Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 27

Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 1:56 pm Post subject:

User N. Ame wrote:

Gurdeep Rivenvald III wrote:

The reason there are many bunts in Japanese high school baseball, especially in Koshien tournament is because the games are often tight, and one mistake can be the difference in the game.

Wrong. The reason there are so many bunts in the Japanese game is because it's the Japanese way. This point seems to have escaped you.

How silly does that sound? They bunt because they're Japanese...

User N. Ame wrote:

I was a part time coach for my chugakko's baseball club.

User-san...We bunto because we Japanese. Wakaru? Japanese...bunto...bonzai...No strategy, just Japanese way...

Gurdeep Rivenvald III wrote:

The reason there are many bunts in Japanese high school baseball, especially in Koshien tournament is because the games are often tight, and one mistake can be the difference in the game. Moving players into scoring position by bunting is a very safe play. Most teams don't play for the big inning, as most high school players are not home run hitters. History as proven this, that teams that score first in Koshien often win.

Logic just made a 2nd appearance. How can you dispute this, coach?

Gurdeep Rivenvald III

Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 27

Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 2:24 pm Post subject:

User N. Ame wrote:

The WBC tells us little about who the best baseball nation is. Maybe after 10 or 20 WBCs we can talk. The real measuring stick is the yearly tour in October to Japan by MLB all-stars (used to be the WS champ), which started after the war. And the US rarely sent their best, rarely took these matches seriously, spent most of their time drinking and visiting the "turkish baths" - and still managed to win these events convincingly, consistently. I'll see if I can dig up the stats on these matches.

You want the real measuring stick of baseball to be exhibition games of MLB baseball players coming to Japan? What's next? Counting preseason games? Keeping stats in spring training?

Japanese doesn't claim to have the best baseball league in the world, nor does it claim to have a monopoly on all the baseball talent either. Japan does have a decent baseball league and does have some superstars that play in the MLB.

Japan is able to claim that they were the best baseball nation at the WBC tournament, under the rules...fair and square, even though from the beginning the American influence tried to steer it in their favor quite heavily. There is no doubt America had higher priced talent and bigger names, but they didn't have the best team. Mexico and Canada proved they didn't. Many were the same players that came in October of 2006 for their "drinking/bath/baseball" trip that everyone in the forum, eagerly, with bated breath, is currently counting down the minutes until you produce such dizzying material...

User N. Ame

Joined: 11 Dec 2006
Posts: 222
Location: Kanto

Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 2:36 pm Post subject:

Gurdeep Rivenvald III wrote:

User N. Ame wrote:

Gurdeep Rivenvald III wrote:

The reason there are many bunts in Japanese high school baseball, especially in Koshien tournament is because the games are often tight, and one mistake can be the difference in the game.

Wrong. The reason there are so many bunts in the Japanese game is because it's the Japanese way. This point seems to have escaped you.

How silly does that sound?

I guess it would sound silly to someone who obviously has little experience watching Japanese baseball. The number of bunts that take place in the Japanese pro leagues vs. those that happen in the MLB... do a bit a research, or better, spend some time watching the Japanese game before playing the role of Mr. Baseball "I know Everything there is to know" Expert.

I don't think there's any mystery or dispute here. The Japanese game is a finesse strategy. The American more of a power game. That translates into more bunting on the Japanese side.

I think you are splitting hairs that don't even exist, young fella. I say the Japanese bunt a hell of a lot, and you conclude I don't understand the bunt. I say the bunt play is reflective of the Japanese style of play, you say it's silly. I don't think it's me who needs the lecture on logic. Rolling Eyes

User N. Ame

Joined: 11 Dec 2006
Posts: 222
Location: Kanto

Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 2:42 pm Post subject:

And just for fun, here's that history of MLB teams vs. Japan, which predates the war: http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/events/japan_series/history.jsp?content=history_teams

Gurdeep Rivenvald III

Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 27

Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 2:56 pm Post subject:

User N. Ame wrote:

The bunt is the big play in Japan

Bunts have always been bigger plays than home runs in Japan.

User N. Ame wrote:

No, I can think of no MLB team that has much in common with the style of the Hanshin Tigers or Tokyo Giants. It's a completely different game. I'm not a purist, and I generally enjoy the Japanese game, but it's a bit too small ball for me, too cautious, too step-by-step.

MLB teams never play small ball...only Japanese teams do so because they are Japanese.
http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Baseball/MLB/Toronto/2007/07/01/4305184-sun.html

Gurdeep Rivenvald III

Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 27

Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 3:41 pm Post subject:

I'm here to discuss baseball. Also, this is just in from "Onion Sports"

'No Bunting' Rule Somehow Finds Way Into Updated MLB Rulebook.

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/59403?utm_source=onion_rss_daily

Quote:

The MLB Rules Committee announced the addition of a controversial new "no bunting" provision in the MLB rulebook Tuesday, described by chairman Sandy Alderson as "only fair." "A batter is out for illegal action when he fails to complete a full swing like everyone else just because he's fast and/or tricky," said Alderson, explaining the official instatement of Article 6.06(e) to the rules. "It's such a far run for the infielders, and plus it's so cheap." Other new rules include a 12-second time limit for a pitcher to deliver the ball, an automatic strike call for any batter who refuses to take his position in the batter's box, and the legalization of pegging.

Back to baseball...it's obvious that bunting still exists in MLB. However, as I pointed out earlier:

Gurdeep Rivenvald III wrote:

User N. Ame wrote:

"WTF are you doing! Bunting with 2 out and run a scoring position, and your down a run!!!" The Japanese game is very mechanical, thus very predictable, very very little room for individual creativity. I'm a big fan of the sac-bunt and squeeze play, but every inning, every second batter, and with 1 out?

Why do you choose to illustrate your point with something that never happens? In Japan, they tend to play more small ball rather than wait for the 3 run homer a la Earl Weaver. There are lots of teams in MLB that also do the same, depending on the type of players on the roster. Where you view the Japanese game as boring, many purists view it as efficient, and some say the way the game should be played, and steroid free to boot.

some teams play small ball and the practice isn't totally abandoned by the majority of the teams. It is done much more National League though, not just the pitchers either.

A good book to read is Moneyball and Billy Beane. It's not that he, along with the statistics dislike small ball, but they put an importance on NOT bunting at all and a premium on walks and players that take a lot of pitches. This is because, through Sabermetrics, giving up an out is too costly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moneyball

What I've said previously still holds true, especially with the high school tournament at Koshien.

Gurdeep Rivenvald III wrote:

In summary, Japanese teams don't play the power baseball game as much as they do in America. However, the practice isn't abandoned totally in the MLB (however some teams have a directive from the front office not to ever bunt at all, as in the Oakland A's) but as games go on into the later innings, many managers do try and scratch away to get one run, move runners in scoring position, depending on the person at bat.

And for those that don't know what small ball or manufacturing runs is about: http://baseball.suite101.com/article.cfm/baseball_slang_dictionary_from_pr

And one more example before bed:
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/nl/dodgers/2007-03-07-small-ball_N.htm

Small ball is the secret in Dodgerland (MLB, USA not Japan)

Quote:

Wills says that he wants Pierre to focus on bunt singles, too, and maybe get 25 this season. Last year, Pierre had 16 bunt singles, but he's had as many as 27.

"I just didn't bunt well last season," Pierre says.

Garciaparra is eager to step to the plate behind Pierre and Furcal. "Speed puts pressure on the defense. It has defensive players moving. It gives the pitcher something more to think about than just the hitter."

Says Furcal: "My job is to get on base any way I can. I want to be the one that starts the engine."

Are the Dodger's Japanese?

southofreality

Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Posts: 579
Location: Tokyo

Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 4:14 pm Post subject:

User N. Ame wrote:

Let's add a little context to this. Prior to (or was it during?), Ichiro made a rather controversial public comment about how superior the Japanese game was to its Asian neighbours (I think he was refering to Korea or Taiwan). And then the unthinkable happened. Korea embarrassed Japan in the preliminaries, and did so rather convincingly. Ichiro lost major face as a result, and his following emotional outbursts on the field and prediction of victory seemed more an act of desperation, a bid to regain face. Lucky for him, it worked. Not diminishing his leadership role, just adding a bit of colour to it.

Actually, there was a lot of trash-talking that was going on in the Korean media about the event and the superiority of the Korean team well before the WBC got underway and quite a bit of it was directed toward Japan. Ichiro didn't like it and made this statement:
"I want to beat South Korea so badly that the South Koreans won't want to play Japan for another 30 years."

A strong statment to be sure, but par for the course given the trash talking that was going on within the Korean media revolving around the inferiority of Japanese baseball. Given the nationalistic trash talking that goes on in soccer, it wasn't a big deal. It sure did piss off the Korean fans in Anaheim that night, though.

Also, to say that his off-the-field leadership was limited to those emotional outbursts is wrong, IMHO. I think he was a solid leader the whole way through. Sure, he could've been a little more diplomatic when dealing with the media, but nobody's perfect.

User N. Ame

Joined: 11 Dec 2006
Posts: 222
Location: Kanto

Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 4:40 pm Post subject:

southofreality wrote:

User N. Ame wrote:

I think he said a bit more than this, something to the effect that [paraphrasing] "Korea is 20 years behind Japan in its baseball skill level and will never catch up..." But I'll see if I can find the original quote. You are right, trash talk was flying on both sides. Not to mention, the Americans wrote the book on the subject. I just felt you needed a bit more context. In the final analysis, what Ichiro did was rather brilliant and classic leadership behavior... he absorbed all of Team Japan's frustrations and media criticism at that crucial time for the greater good of the team. Great leaders do this. But it was so out of character for him that it appeared all the more impressive.

As for the further ramblings and blatherings of our esteemed baseball yogi, ramble on. My chakras are well balanced when it comes to understanding the game in Japan and back home, tyvm.

Otherwise, I've enjoyed the discussion.

User N. Ame

Joined: 11 Dec 2006
Posts: 222
Location: Kanto

Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 5:07 pm Post subject:

Gurdeep Rivenvald III wrote:

What I've said previously still holds true

Of course. But a personally held truth is not to be confused with the truth in facts.

Gurdeep Rivenvald III wrote:

In summary, Japanese teams don't play the power baseball game as much as they do in America.

*clap clap clap*

Gurdeep Rivenvald III wrote:

However, the practice [the bunt] isn't abandoned totally in the MLB

And no one here, certainly not I, suggested it was! I think your enthusiasm and passion for the game has gotten the better of you in this thread, and you're missing some very important points in your rush to set up and torch down straw men.

In essence, you and I agree. The two styles of baseball are different. Japan's game involves more bunts. The MLB involves more power. When comparing styles, I am talking in generalities, you want to focus on specific exceptions to the rule. Again, splitting non-existent hairs.

The one issue you seem to have trouble with is the fact that the different styles of the game are reflective of different cultures. You toss out nonsense about moved fences, steroids and whatnot, which in itself is moot because the American game of slugging and individual creativity has been much the same long before steroids became an issue or before new fields were built. Babe Ruth didn't take steroids; he drank too much beer and was a compulsive hot dog eater. Likewise, the Japanese wa oriented strategy of bunt and run (ie, the Japanese way) has been the way they've done it since 1880.

Gurdeep Rivenvald III

Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 27

Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 1:58 pm Post subject:

User N. Ame wrote:

My chakras are well balanced when it comes to understanding the game in Japan and back home, tyvm.

Translation: You've been proven wrong, numerous times, yet you still won't come out and say it.

User N. Ame wrote:

Likewise, the Japanese wa oriented strategy of bunt and run (ie, the Japanese way) has been the way they've done it since 1880.

Having a discussion, when you don't even understand the correct terminology is a waste of time. You're mixing up "hit and run" with the less common bunt and run. Please understand what you're talking about before banging your chest, former coach...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hit_and_run_(baseball)

Quote:

In the rare circumstance that a hit and run is executed with a bunt, it is called a bunt and run. A bunt and run that begins with a runner on second base can lead to a run scored if, as the fielder fields the bunt and throws to first, the runner continues around third base and attempts to score.

This goes out to all the foreigners in Japan, that didn't come from a baseball country. Along with User N. Ame, it might be a good read for you to learn a little more about the game.

http://www.newyorkknights.org/strat.asp

Hopefully you can make some t-shirts sharing your knowlege of culture and baseball:

Ichiro is a good bunter because he's Japanese. - User N. Ame

Gurdeep Rivenvald III

Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 27

Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 2:03 pm Post subject:

southofreality wrote:

Let's face it... Sports fans can be annoying wherever you are. If you compare an afternoon ballgame in Chicago to an evening ballgame in Tokyo, the Tokyo game is usually going to be much more exciting. The Chicago afternoon game usually has a pretty tame crowd. Watch a TV game on WGN sometime and you'll see that too many people in the stands are fat slobs, sprawled out, drinking beer and eating hot dogs. Not a terribly exciting image.
But, I do like going to evening games in the States, especially when two division rivals are going at it. If the game is close in the closing innings, you'll see some of the most amazing fan behavior: The crowd is lively, the music is rockin'... and then the home team pitcher gets ready to throw. It suddenly gets dead quiet. The pitch gets thrown... it's a strike! The crowd goes nuts for about 20 seconds, then it gets dead quiet again as he gets ready to wind up. I love that! For me, that's as good as it gets.

Something that is very rare in Japan, is the double header. I love double headers, especially late in the season, if the teams involved are still in the hunt.

Best game I've witnessed live: When Dennis Martinez threw a perfect game against the Dodgers at Dodger Stadium.

furiousmilksheikali

Joined: 31 Jul 2006
Posts: 1660
Location: In a coffee shop, splitting a 30,000 yen tab with Sekiguchi.

Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 2:58 pm Post subject:

Gurdeep, are you saying that the bunt is: a) A more important part of baseball in Japan than in the US? Or b) A less important part of baseball in Japan than in the US? Or c) As important in the US as it is in Japan? If (a) then do you submit it is part of Japanese baseball? But if you admit to (a) then is it wrong to consider it "the Japanese way"?

Gurdeep Rivenvald III

Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 27

Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 3:23 pm Post subject:

A bunt is part of baseball. Players don't but because they are Japanese.

furiousmilksheikali

Joined: 31 Jul 2006
Posts: 1660
Location: In a coffee shop, splitting a 30,000 yen tab with Sekiguchi.

Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 4:06 pm Post subject:

Gurdeep Rivenvald III wrote:

A bunt is part of baseball. Players don't but because they are Japanese.

I don't think anyone disputes the fact that a bunt is part of baseball. The point that was being made is that the bunt is a bigger part of the Japanese game. Or was there another point that you were disputing?

fat_chris

Joined: 10 Sep 2003
Posts: 3198
Location: Beijing

Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 4:24 pm Post subject: Hit King to Cooperstown

Dear Bud Selig: PUT PETER EDWARD ROSE IN THE HALL! Regards, fat_c

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