|
Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Students and Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
SnoopBot
Joined: 21 Jun 2007
Posts: 740
Location: USA
|
 Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 3:10 am Post subject: |
 |
|
| vikuk wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I'd disagree with that being a logical follow-on - as mentioned earlier, the education of Chinese English teachers are not geared towards teaching methodology but towards learning English themselves. Therefore, the only logical assumption an employer would need to make is that foreign teachers are as biologically competent in teaching as the Chinese ones. If neither knows much about teaching, employing a native-speaker is still desirable because they've got better English. |
Dearest katya � a teacher can�t help but use some form of method - and here is a simple run down of the common methodology associated with teaching English in China -
1 - A teacher can't help using some form of method - for example if all the teacher can do is talk English and no Chinese then their method is based on talking English to the class � this type of method has been described under the label Communicative approach.
2- However if the teacher finds that this method doesn�t �cut the cake�, and that many students don�t understand the English then maybe they will try give their communication extra clarity by combining it with appropriate body language � a method that could be described under the label of TPR. (by the way this is also a method the Ft seems to instinctivly fall into - and although you can be trained in TPR - we all seem to evolve our natural form of this teaching method)
Methods 1 and 2 are those most commonly used by the FT � and unless the FT just stands mutely in front of the class- or can�t speak English � then they can�t help but use method 1 � regardless of their training, or the employer�s desires with regard to teaching method. Teaching method and teaching go hand in hand - one can�t escape the other � but qualification (which of course includes experience) should enable you to reflect on method and improve methodology to suite specific situations.
3- So how does the method employed by the FT differ from that of the CT � well usually in one very important point � the English teaching CT usually uses the Chinese language as the foundation for teaching English � which suites exam orientated education very nicely. Teaching mainly through the written word the method many CT�s use could be described under the label of grammar-translation approach.
4 � And now we come to the real horror. For small Children with limited reading ability and in situations where resources are scarce (teachers who can really understand English and text books) then English teaching is based on getting students to memorise whole chunks of language without any real attempt to explain the language learnt. This method could be described under the label rote learning.
Now in recent times there has been a lot of homebred dissatisfaction with the general standards of Chinese education � and with particular reference to English teaching � parents know that methods 3 and 4 aren�t those that inspire or really help the normal student to become fluent in English. With this in mind educators have introduced FT�s into the Chinese English classroom � so that they can better utalise methods 1 and 2, which indeed can be very effective especially when these methods are expedited with professional care and quality. However unscrupulous folk discovered such was the demand for this type of FT method that they soon found out that people would pay for almost any white person that was placed in the front of classroom � especially when those people paying were parents and the victims of the FT scam were children who weren�t really competent in reporting home on the quality of their English lessons. So bad has this trade become, and so desperate are Chinese employers to earn some money out of � that today if your white and walking and can string three English words together you can be a teacher. No wonder the words �white monkey� are banded about.
5 � Today some Chinese parents are becoming wiser to the FT scam � and methods are evolving to meet their needs. This evolution can stem from the improving standards of certain homebred teachers, and in the Ft sector there are those who are staying long �term and who are learning Chinese (L1) - or those who are getting over the language problem by using competent local teaching assitance within the classroom. These trends have resulted in modern bilingual methods of teaching language � where L1 is the foundation to learning English but as English (L2) fluency increases then the L2 takes over as the classroom language. This type of method has its distant roots in the writing based translation methodologies but much greater emphasis is placed on the oral aspects of teaching (where the FT is concerned 100% oral based). This type of method could be described under the label of direct approach. By the way an extra advantage of this method is that both CT and FT can use it in tandem and thus bring direct cooperation and pooling of skill resources into play.
Chinese teachers who are competent in method 5 can really earn the bucks (usually through freelancing � but certain schools will also pay good wages as well) � but FT�s � well that monkey label has rather stuck fast with our employers � and they always prefer to pay peanuts if they can get away with it!!! |
100% correct Vikuk , good post that explains it all very clearly.
I predict that in the future NET's will need both L1 (host country) and L2 (English) bilingual ability to secure the better job positions.
Of course this means NET's will teach much more than just "oral based" instruction. I hope that the pay will reflect this added skillset too.
I see a need for this L1-L2 combo for technical specialized seminar training sessions.
These areas are where the big money is right now.
Investment and Business training seminars. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
cj750s
Joined: 26 May 2007
Posts: 701
Location: Donghai Town, Beijng
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 5:06 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| I'd rather say that a teacher in the West would not be asked to be half as independent as a teacher in China. |
Teachers in Western countries are assigned real classes and real subjects...and in my experience the Chinese employer will tell you just what he is looking for his money...
| Quote: |
| (Many) people tend to perform better when they have responsibility over their own improvement and are not simply told what to do by somebody else. |
who measures this improvement..if it is a self induced scale..then it is worthless..only the man who sighs the paycheck can determine your worth...
| Quote: |
| They do notice the difference of whether you are a competent teacher or if you couldn't care less |
.
No one is talkin bout teachers who couldnt care less...and again competence cannot be determined by you but has to be the authroity in control..and students are not in control..except in the cases where they can tell the admin that the teacher is boring....and if not entertaining..the teacher is boring..
| Quote: |
| In many ways I think that to the Chinese, 'teaching' is not a skill in the same way as it is to Westerners. |
yea, they have licences...those are real teachers..and the FT is usually just a speaker in a classroom... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 7:08 am Post subject: |
|
|
Agreed. That most recent post from vikuk is a good one. It really covers all of the bases as they apply here in China.
One point about the method 5 however - the one about foreign teachers using Chinese to teach English. It sounds good in theory but having seen the results of the practice I am not impressed.
For the last few years in Taiwan there has been a movement by some away from the traditional English speaking teaching environments of most buxibans. The belief among these parents being that their children's inability to converse in English is the fault of the buxiban that places more emphasis on creating and English speaking environment than actually teaching the language.
So a new breed of buxiban sprung up. One that employs foreign teachers who can speak Chinese and who can use their language capabilities to attempt to teach the children English. No Chinese teachers in the classroom. These buxibans moved away from the conversational aspects of the language and have almost all concentrated on vocabulary, grammar, and pronunciation. For some reason most have adopted the authoritarian approach to teaching whereby students sit in rows, stand up to speak, and repeat words, phrases and sentences repeatedly until the teacher allows them to sit down again. Homework load is heavy with test reviews and compulsory tape recording of all work covered during the class. The foreign teacher is responsible for correcting these tapes and the homework which amounts to at least two hours work a day from my experience.
The parents that choose these schools love them. They pay top dollar for the classes and they sit in the back of the classroom making notes and tape recording the class either for their own benefit or later review. These are the sorts of parents that believe in the old systems of education as they fully support masses of homework as well as very public admonishments of students who get something wrong. Most adopt the mindless punishments of requiring students that make mistakes to write or record the word/sentence one hundred times!!
I think it goes without saying that these classrooms are not fun environments, nor are the schools that house them. The students are noticeably quiet in the school, and there is only the occasional smile.
I believe that these types of schools do certainly achieve better and clearer pronunciation. No doubt in my mind about that.
But this benefit comes at a loss including the following:
1. Lack of interest among the students as far as communicating in English. They are all so busy trying to get the details right that they lack the ability or incentive to actually use the language.
2. Lack of imagination when attempting to use the language. Even when the teacher asks for original answers to questions you only ever see usages of the already taught vocab and grammar. I never saw a student attempt to use any vocab from outside the classroom, perhaps due to fear that it may be mispronounced and therefore punished. It was much easier to regurgitate an often pronounced word just to get to sit down without punishment.
3. Lack of ability to understand any English that had not been taught. And I mean by this simple English that is within the realm of what they were learning. If it was outside of the box they were just not capable of accepting or using it.
4. Teachers with fat wallets but that burned out very quickly due to sore throats and long hours of extra-curricular correcting.
5. No forum through which students could ask questions other than through the foreign teacher which if he/she didn't understand would lead to a dead end for the students.
6. The fact that some foreign teachers are probably more confident in their abilities to speak Chinese than they should be. I am no Chinese whizz myself but it was pretty embarassing to hear some of the stuff that came out of some teachers mouths.
Having worked in both environments I am confident that the English language environment achieves better results. The students are more able to use English and to experiment with the language, but more importantly they are more willing to use the language. They see it as a genuine way to communicate whereas those other poor sods see it as a way to get their teacher or parents off their back and to pass tests.
I think that the idea has some promise, but lets hope that if the idea becomes more widely used here on the Mainland that more thought goes into ensuring that it is not a step backwards. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
vikuk
Joined: 23 May 2007
Posts: 1842
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 7:28 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| One point about the method 5 however - the one about foreign teachers using Chinese to teach English. It sounds good in theory but having seen the results of the practice I am not impressed. |
Dearest Clark when reading your post your main critic springs from this -
| Quote: |
| So a new breed of buxiban sprung up. One that employs foreign teachers who can speak Chinese and who can use their language capabilities to attempt to teach the children English. No Chinese teachers in the classroom. These buxibans moved away from the conversational aspects of the language and have almost all concentrated on vocabulary, grammar, and pronunciation. For some reason most have adopted the authoritarian approach to teaching whereby students sit in rows, stand up to speak, and repeat words, phrases and sentences repeatedly until the teacher allows them to sit down again. Homework load is heavy with test reviews and compulsory tape recording of all work covered during the class. The foreign teacher is responsible for correcting these tapes and the homework which amounts to at least two hours work a day from my experience. |
The negative points you've noted have not been brought about by the incorporation an L1 into L2 teaching - and indeed any method of teaching - including English only immersion - could be spoilt by the factors you describe!!! In fact, with your evidence, the only way you could seriously compare the two methods was to also observe the results of English only teaching in the same kind of "authoritarian/result orientated" classroom environment  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
voodikon
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 1363
Location: chengdu
|
| Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2007 10:37 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Katja84 wrote: |
I shouldn't be condoning it, but at the same time I think it's a bit too simple to say that we get the jobs because of our race alone. 99% of the time the white people who make their way to China speak better English than the local Chinese teachers. I have seen qualified Chinese English teachers teach 'eating' with two 't's on the blackboard, and many times they appear to have difficulties holding conversations with foreigners (this may not apply everywhere, but certainly does in much of the interior).
On the other hand, I do think it is essential to know how to teach - that's probably the main problem with foreigners coming to China, but once again let's compare with your average Chinese English teacher. How much teaching methodology have they actually done? I have been told English majors, at least at some universities, do not begin learning about teaching before their third or even fourth year (this is what they told me, but I might have misunderstood - their English wasn't the best). And even in the last two years, they are still mainly just trying to learn the language. Having a qualification isn't everything - most people who come to China do skim through a textbook or two in TEFL, even if they decide not to do a hugely expensive CELTA course, for instance. On average I would say that Chinese English teachers and foreign English teachers do about as good of a job when it comes to the teaching part of it (at least if you take into account the fact that foreign teachers can motivate some students better).
White people in China do have other reasons for expecting employment than simply the colour of their skin - they often have much better English than their Chinese collegues (this may not be the case on the East Coast, but it certainly is out west) and even if they do not have a TESOL certificate, they may not be any worse teachers. If nothing else, they do tend to have experience of a teaching methodology that seems to be a bit more effective than the ones adopted by the Chinese (sorry, I'm just sceptical towards the idea of memorizing a full page of text word by word, as I have been asked to do in learning Chinese in China). All I am saying that a qualification alone doesn't always say very much, especially not in China...
What I do think is outrageous is the special treatment given to foreign teachers, including three times the salary of even the best Chinese English teachers. Foreigners may not need the qualifications a Chinese English teacher would need (a four-year degree that mainly focuses on learning the language anyway) but I definitely think we should be treated equally with the Chinese teachers in terms of employment conditions. If we are to receive a higher salary, this is when we should provide evidence that we are better qualified than the Chinese teachers. |
i'm surprised nobody else has pointed out that this entire post precludes the fact that there are non-white native english speakers, which i took to be the point of the original post--though sorry to jump on this so late in the discussion.
a chinese-american english teacher, for instance, is very different from a chinese english teacher.
and also, white doesn't necessarily equal native english speaker. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Katja84
Joined: 06 May 2007
Posts: 165
|
| Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2007 3:10 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| voodikon wrote: |
i'm surprised nobody else has pointed out that this entire post precludes the fact that there are non-white native english speakers, which i took to be the point of the original post--though sorry to jump on this so late in the discussion.
a chinese-american english teacher, for instance, is very different from a chinese english teacher.
and also, white doesn't necessarily equal native english speaker. |
I didn't intend my post to preclude anything of that sort. I wouldn't deny that most Chinese are racists (thus why black teachers have such difficulty getting a job) but that doesn't change the fact that employers have good reason to expect white people to have certain qualifications (knowledge of the English language). This goes even for most white non-native speakers in China - we do on average speak better English than the Chinese teachers (though, as evidence that Chinese employers actually do not look at race alone, we are significantly less employable).
I mentioned in my post that it is outrageous for employers to offer, and white teachers to expect, salaries so much higher merely for being white and speaking a bit better English. I'd say the difficulty for Chinese-Americans in getting a job is due to the fact that an institution cannot as easily 'prove' what investment they've made (as they look the same as the cheaper Chinese teachers), while still having to pay those extra few thousand yuan for hiring a foreigner. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
u24tc
Joined: 14 May 2007
Posts: 125
Location: Dalian, China
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 11:27 pm Post subject: |
|
|
In most contracts Katja there is a clause stating a probation period of a month which basically allows the employer to examine your performance to see if it is satisfactory. I think this is good.
It annoys me somewhat when people who simply want to find a job in China and expects a high salary in a good location, etc when they are not qualified to do so if you know I mean. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
cj750s
Joined: 26 May 2007
Posts: 701
Location: Donghai Town, Beijng
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 2:19 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| and also, white doesn't necessarily equal native english speaker. |
it does in China.... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
u24tc
Joined: 14 May 2007
Posts: 125
Location: Dalian, China
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 9:37 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| cj750s wrote: |
| Quote: |
| and also, white doesn't necessarily equal native english speaker. |
it does in China.... |
Agreed 100% |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jwbhomer
Joined: 14 Dec 2003
Posts: 876
Location: CANADA
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 9:43 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Well, up in Heilongjiang white can mean native RUSSIAN speaker too.  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
james s
Joined: 07 Feb 2007
Posts: 676
Location: Raincity
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 11:22 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Holy smokes! The last time I saw this thread it was at around 20 posts and about 200 views! I read a lot of it today and it is quite the cursefest, but rughtfully so. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
u24tc
Joined: 14 May 2007
Posts: 125
Location: Dalian, China
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 4:02 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| james s wrote: |
| Holy smokes! The last time I saw this thread it was at around 20 posts and about 200 views! I read a lot of it today and it is quite the cursefest, but rughtfully so. |
Just to add to my post, how many of you that have read and replied to the post would say you have these requirements:
1. Degree (any subject)
2. 1 year experience +
If you have more, great but a simple yes or no will be enough.
If you have either 1 or 2 please reply also.
I am just curious to know the majority of those on Dave's ESL who are teaching in China and are 'qualified'. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
therock
Joined: 31 Jul 2005
Posts: 1266
Location: China
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 5:02 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| So I am qualified to teach in China......... Life can't get any better. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
u24tc
Joined: 14 May 2007
Posts: 125
Location: Dalian, China
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 7:47 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| therock wrote: |
| So I am qualified to teach in China......... Life can't get any better. |
Put it this way, I believe a person who has no.1 is better prepared to teach than a person without no.1 regardless of no.2.
Do I believe a person with a Phd is better than one with a Bachelors... no i don't, unless it is specifically related to teaching.
For example:
Person A: has a degree, no experience
Person B: no degree, no experience, a weekend TEFL
I know who I would hire. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jwbhomer
Joined: 14 Dec 2003
Posts: 876
Location: CANADA
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 8:25 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| I had no. 1 (degrees) when I was first hired to teach English in China, but not no. 2, although I did have some related experience. Now I can say I have no. 1 AND no. 2...but I've wiped the chalk off my fingers and retired! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
This page is maintained by the one and only Dave Sperling.
Contact Dave's ESL Cafe
Copyright © 2018 Dave Sperling. All Rights Reserved.
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
