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markle
Joined: 17 Jan 2003
Posts: 1316
Location: Out of Japan
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 Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 3:18 am Post subject: |
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| 6810 wrote: |
The flaw in the Jpn education system, as I was saying to a friend the other day lies not necessarily with pedagogical methods or subjects taught - it lies with the incredible overburdening and over surveillance as teachers. Teachers are supposedly respected etc in the community, but the reality is that they are public servants driven into the ground by excessive workloads and over zealous bureaucracy.
This to me creates conditions which aren't exactly hospitable for teaching as a project to inspire. After all, I too look at the system as an outsider - the kids, the students seem pretty much the same whether in the US, Oz or Japan - however, looking at what teachers go through, their virtual inability to take time off, lack of perks such as long service leave, having to actually be at school during vacation periods, constant enforced contact with local BOE's...
I just think - who on earth would actually want to be a teacher in Japan? |
A very good observation. I do think that teachers could benefit from the move from quantative to qualitive outcomes. Also in a while schools will have to start improving work conditions in order to attract and retain teachers. |
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king kakipi
Joined: 16 Feb 2004
Posts: 353
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 10:25 am Post subject: |
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6810 wrote:
Where might that be?
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I'm in WA. Could be any state or territory though......we have a federal education minister (Julie Bishop) who is promoting 'performance-based pay' based on the opinions of groups, including high school students. Would you like to pay your mortgage on income derived from what your students think of you............
.....but I am more worried that such is the shortage of teachers now, that my son will be taught by qualified teachers who have achieved the 42% pass mark allowing them to teach........ 
They are over 80 teachers short as I write this, in WA state schools, and that's little wonder....I'm at the VERY top of the scale here and get AU$68000 pa; if I washed dishes further north in WA I'd earn upwards of AU$90000 pa; Chicken Treat are paying AU$100000+; post men are earning up to $130000 pa before overtime......
those left in teaching (like me) are either committed (or should be committed!!); unwilling to leave the city; too old to so something else or delusional.
Sorry for the vent; read more vents if you want:-
www.platowa.com
Check if your customers, sorry students (posting anonymously), reckon you deserve that extra 5 bucks a week:-
http://au.ratemyteachers.com/ |
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6810
Joined: 16 Nov 2003
Posts: 309
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| Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 11:06 am Post subject: |
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That's interesting.
The economy in WA's a bit different, no? More driven by the so called "resource boom". Which basically translates into "if you go out to the back of b.uggery and do whatever, the pay is amazing"... problem is lack of social infrastructure, distance from friends and family etc...
Am I reading this right? |
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king kakipi
Joined: 16 Feb 2004
Posts: 353
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 11:34 am Post subject: |
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6810 asked:-
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| Am I reading this right? |
Yes. Except if you teach in the back of buggery you'd go from 68k max to maybe $76K max and be the lowest paid joker your age in the whole town................ |
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JonnyB61
Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 216
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 3:08 pm Post subject: |
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G'day Cobbers
Sorry to interrupt this Bruce's Jamboree but I wanted to make a couple of observations on the original post.
I read, with considerable alarm, the speech by Masao Miyamoto. After that I discussed it at length with my wife (Japanese). She supported his observations.
As the parents of a 3 year old girl of mixed race (Japanese/English) we need to make far reaching decisions about her future; and ours by association.
Not being wealthy, the choices we face seem to be narrowed down to two. She goes through the Japanese state education system or she goes through the English state education system.
The first turns out timorous and submissive little automatons while the second turns out self-centered, foul-mouthed disrespectful little hooligans, unless one has the money to pay for private education.
I generalize, of course, but the pattern is far too common for us to be comfortable with either. These are the things which are truly worrying us.
A middle way between the Japanese and English models would be perfect for our child and for us.
Does it exist? We can but hope.
Ideas anyone? |
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6810
Joined: 16 Nov 2003
Posts: 309
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| Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 12:10 am Post subject: |
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| JonnyB61 wrote: |
Not being wealthy, the choices we face seem to be narrowed down to two. She goes through the Japanese state education system or she goes through the English state education system.
The first turns out timorous and submissive little automatons while the second turns out self-centered, foul-mouthed disrespectful little hooligans, unless one has the money to pay for private education.
I generalize, of course, but the pattern is far too common for us to be comfortable with either. These are the things which are truly worrying us.
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I have a few thoughts on this.
1. As another poster said elsewhere and as Glenski has also said previously, the Japanese education system that so many of us foreigners find problematic is the same system that has "produced" at least in my case my family and some of my closest friends. These people are far from submissive automatons, but they are also Japanese. The purpose of schools is to produce citizens conducive to the survival of nations and cultures.
2. Do western education systems really produce self-centered, foul mouth brats? And if they do, is this such a bad thing anyway (kind of a devil's advocate question really)?
3. Or is it the case that education systems everywhere are seriously flawed and that in the end an integral aspect of a child's education is the whole context in which s/he is raised? This includes parent's views on society, family ethics and morals and whether family and friends encourage children to learn, to be critical, curious, inquisitive and compassionate young citizens and humans. Kids go to school, increasingly these days (doesn't matter where) for what might be called predominantly "vocational" education - they are learning the educational fundamentals in order to enter into a particular kind of social-political-economic "machine" that is not particularly kind to non-conformity (again, everywhere).
4. So is there a middle way at all? Or is it more to do with looking at the bigger picture and visualising yourself, friends and family as an integral component of realising your child's potential and right to a full human existence..? |
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SeasonedVet
Joined: 28 Aug 2006
Posts: 236
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 3:15 pm Post subject: |
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6810 wrote:
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| The flaw in the Jpn education system, as I was saying to a friend the other day lies not necessarily with pedagogical methods or subjects taught - it lies with the incredible overburdening and over surveillance as teachers. |
In my opinion it
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| lies necessarily with pedagogical methods |
as well as your second point
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| it lies with the incredible overburdening and over surveillance as teachers. |
although I can't speak to the "surveilance" part as I didn't notice any special surveilance. |
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SeasonedVet
Joined: 28 Aug 2006
Posts: 236
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 3:36 pm Post subject: |
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After having seen first hand what the education system is like in japan I had similar thoughts to others who seem to want to shy away from schooling their kids here.
The education system in Japan reflects the culture.
Ask yourself this question: "Why do the Boards of Education find it necessary to continue keeping teachers so ( or more and more) busy?
Does it have to do with the fact that other public servants have to work hard and teachers should not seem to be having alot of free time? Or is it something else? There must be a reason.
When I hear of the paperwork and counselling work and statistical work and clerical work and secretarial work that teachers have to do it makes me wonder why they would have to do such things.
So 6810 is correct in saying that this is a problem
But it does not take away from the fact that the pedagogy also has its problems.
They have been mentioned time and again in other threads.
Moves are afoot to change that. (at least in the teaching of English in High Schools in one prefecture I know of) where teachers of English have to attend seminars which include creating lesson plans, groupwork, homework etc etc.
I have been asked by about 3 teachers for help with lesson plans.
Moreover teachers of English have been keeping resources created by the ALT's and I know one teacher who actually makes lesson plans and is pretty good at it too. She is not young but she tries (based on what she has seen ALT's doing over the years).
Her lessons are fun for the students as well as for her.
Think about it. Why do you think some high school or JR High school kids are so happy to see the ALT (other than the fact that he or she might be handsome or cute, lets get away from that)
They actually enjoy the lessons. And learning should be fun.
There is no reason why learning should be a boring sleepy task that turns you off from wanting to come to school..........
But to comment some more on the original question of schooling your kids in Japan ............... |
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SeasonedVet
Joined: 28 Aug 2006
Posts: 236
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 3:51 pm Post subject: |
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..... but to comment more on the questions of why would you or wouldn't you school your kids in Japan ...
I guess any country you are in you would have to consider schooling your kids there but there is an important point:
True and real education begins in the home.
It would be up to you as the parent(s) to make sure that your child is educated and not only academically but morally spiritually etc. All this can't be done in the school system of Any country.
If you want your kids to be well rounded individuals then some of it has to done at home.
In the schools you'll find good and bad teachers. If by the luck of the draw you get a bad teacher then you have to do the rest at home after your kids get home from school.
If your focus is just academics, and you are certain that japan cannot prepare your kids academically, then school them in another country.
If you think that your kids could be educated properly academically in Japan well then school them in Japan but you might have to take care of the other forms of education that involve being a well rounded person. |
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Sherri
Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Posts: 749
Location: The Big Island, Hawaii
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| Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 6:16 pm Post subject: |
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| SeasonedVet wrote: |
...True and real education begins in the home.
It would be up to you as the parent(s) to make sure that your child is educated and not only academically but morally spiritually etc. All this can't be done in the school system of Any country.
If you want your kids to be well rounded individuals then some of it has to done at home. |
I agree! This is a very important point. That is why, if you do choose to live out your life in Japan and have your kids schooled there, you must speak, ready and write Japanese very well if you want to have an active part in your children's lives.
It is one thing to discuss this topic in the hypothetical, but when you do have a child, this decision becomes very real. As someone who has been through the decision-making process, my advice is:
1. If you plan to stay, learn Japanese well! If you don't you are in danger of losing the ability to communicate effectively with your kids, your kids friends, teachers and other parents. Your child may be ashamed of you if you can't.
2. Talk to other parents who are doing/ have done the same thing. I talked to everyone. Parents with young kids, kids in Jr high, kids in high school, in international school, private Japanese school, international couples, Japanese couples. Gather all the information you can. Make sure you talk to people with kids who have completed the system and if you can the kids themselves.
If we had stayed, I think I would have chosen either a private Japanese school (the public schools in my area of Tokyo were a little rough) or an international school with a Japanese and US balanced curriculum (I had a big choice of schools in Tokyo).
Every family has to make their own decision, there is no right and wrong! In the end, I know that even though the schools are far from perfect where I am now, I am in a better and stronger position to co-education my children here in the US, than I would be in Japan. |
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king kakipi
Joined: 16 Feb 2004
Posts: 353
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2007 12:34 am Post subject: |
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I agree that education begins at home. That's another minus for me in regard to schooling my son in Japan. As a full time teacher here in Oz I am home by 3~4 pm and spend time with him and don't go to school Saturdays and only maybe a total of 2 out of the 12 weeks' annual holiday. I could see that time being considerably reduced in Japan due to:-
me staying at school until 5 or 6 pm
possible having to teach business again after school to make ends meet
increased commute time
Saturday am 'club' duties
working in the holidays
not to mention my son maybe being under pressure to attend 'cram' school..........
and whatdya reckon of cram school?
I spent 3 yrs teaching kids in the UK and 15 in Oz....I've never had a kid drop off in class but as an AET in Japan I saw it numerous times. What's the point of going to cram school and then sleeping at regular school?!
I'm still swinging towards education in Oz but I have my reservations about that too.
But as least teaching in Oz I can contribute much more to my son's 'education at home' |
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6810
Joined: 16 Nov 2003
Posts: 309
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| Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2007 4:08 am Post subject: |
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| SeasonedVet wrote: |
6810 wrote:
| Quote: |
| The flaw in the Jpn education system, as I was saying to a friend the other day lies not necessarily with pedagogical methods or subjects taught - it lies with the incredible overburdening and over surveillance as teachers. |
In my opinion it
| Quote: |
| lies necessarily with pedagogical methods |
as well as your second point
| Quote: |
| it lies with the incredible overburdening and over surveillance as teachers. |
although I can't speak to the "surveilance" part as I didn't notice any special surveilance. |
By surveillance I mean the constant paperwork and ridiculously large amount of qualitative evaluation forms that must be generated, filled out, distributed, collated etc... all in the name of producing "statistical" data... |
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Sherri
Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Posts: 749
Location: The Big Island, Hawaii
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| Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2007 4:13 am Post subject: |
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| king kakipi wrote: |
| ...and whatdya reckon of cram school? |
Cram school will almost guaranteed be a part of your life if you school in Japan. If you choose a public school, it will probably be to make up for the short-comings of the day to day lessons. If you choose a private school it will be because all the other kids do it and your child will not be able to keep up with regular classes without it--the teachers just assume that all kids go to juku.
Sherri |
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6810
Joined: 16 Nov 2003
Posts: 309
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| Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2007 4:29 am Post subject: |
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| SeasonedVet wrote: |
So 6810 is correct in saying that this is a problem
But it does not take away from the fact that the pedagogy also has its problems.
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Indeed, I am not denying the pedagogical problems. It's just that, IMO the most frequent critiques of Japanese education by non-Japanese (usually Western, ie - not Asian) is of the rote learning pedagogy. I am just trying to point to other, less commented on problems which I believe are at the root of many problems in the J-edu system. |
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6810
Joined: 16 Nov 2003
Posts: 309
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| Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2007 4:35 am Post subject: |
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| Sherri wrote: |
1. If you plan to stay, learn Japanese well! If you don't you are in danger of losing the ability to communicate effectively with your kids, your kids friends, teachers and other parents. Your child may be ashamed of you if you can't.
2. Talk to other parents who are doing/ have done the same thing. I talked to everyone. Parents with young kids, kids in Jr high, kids in high school, in international school, private Japanese school, international couples, Japanese couples. Gather all the information you can. Make sure you talk to people with kids who have completed the system and if you can the kids themselves.
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I find this to be a fairly common and understandable perspective. However, I do have a couple of extra thoughts in relation to this.
1. If one is intending to live in Japan long term enough to send their kids to school (indeed to even have kids in Japan as a foreigner) then, IMO it is the gravest responsibility of non-Jpn parents to learn Japanese and to become literate in Japanese. Not only for their children, but for themselves and their wider communities.
2. I wonder though if some of the opposition from foreign parents to sending their kids through Jpn schools is to do with the fact that they are unwilling or undesirous of their children "growing up foreign". This is a common experience for migrants all over the world - they watch their children become integrated into society at a much faster and more natural rate than they did. That said, I do think there are important and useful strategies, chief among them being literacy that can help foreign parents integrate themselves into their wider community. |
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