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boondoggle
Joined: 25 Jul 2007
Posts: 104
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 Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 2:45 pm Post subject: |
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| veiledsentiments wrote: |
Interesting that they gave you an offer that high based on no related education or experience. That suggest that they are completely desperate. Normally those credentials would get you an offer of 7-10,000.
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Well, I have other skills and relevant life experience aside from the paper qualifications and EFL gift wrapping which is a bit much to get into on this forum. Also, I don't see why anyone would accept 7-10,000 when there are less restrictive and higher quality of life regions of the world to work such as Korea and Japan. I'd say they got it exactly right on the nose.
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Nothing personal boondoggle, but I thought that this program was to be raising the level of local teachers... so wouldn't they want to be hiring people with an education degree and experience teaching children?
VS |
It's not all primary students there are K-10,11,12 students and that's not for the faint of heart or ivory tower educators.  . |
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stoth1972
Joined: 16 May 2003
Posts: 674
Location: Seattle, Washington
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| Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 3:16 pm Post subject: |
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| I'm shocked, too, considering that we know of qualified primary teachers w/ many years of experience who were not even considered for an interview. My friend who was offered the job said they had a few thousand applicants to pick from, too (according to the people who conducted her interview). |
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boondoggle
Joined: 25 Jul 2007
Posts: 104
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| Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 3:33 pm Post subject: |
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| stoth1972 wrote: |
| I'm shocked, too, considering that we know of qualified primary teachers w/ many years of experience who were not even considered for an interview. My friend who was offered the job said they had a few thousand applicants to pick from, too (according to the people who conducted her interview). |
I feel like i'm in a knitting circle with astonished old ladies hemming and hawing about the latest town gossip. Look, the fact of the matter is there's much more to teaching than paper quals. and "years of experience" in a stable comfortable environment. There are individuals who break the mold who may have life experience beyond sitting in a room accumulating golfclap accolades and fluffy evaluations by similar academics. I'm not gloating at all, I thought this forum may have a few less vindicative insecure teachers who are fine with frank conversation but apparently i'm wrong on all fronts. I guess i'm just not pretentious enough. |
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wannago
Joined: 16 Apr 2004
Posts: 85
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| Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 3:50 pm Post subject: |
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| But you've got quite the smug attitude to go with that lack of being pretentious. Good luck. |
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boondoggle
Joined: 25 Jul 2007
Posts: 104
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| Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 3:58 pm Post subject: |
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| wannago wrote: |
| But you've got quite the smug attitude to go with that lack of being pretentious. Good luck. |
Same to you, "friend." Just leave your personal baggage from the west back home if you come east. The world needs less of it. |
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stoth1972
Joined: 16 May 2003
Posts: 674
Location: Seattle, Washington
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| Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 4:10 pm Post subject: |
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| I feel like i'm in a knitting circle with astonished old ladies hemming and hawing about the latest town gossip. Look, the fact of the matter is there's much more to teaching than paper quals. and "years of experience" in a stable comfortable environment. There are individuals who break the mold who may have life experience beyond sitting in a room accumulating golfclap accolades and fluffy evaluations by similar academics. I'm not gloating at all, I thought this forum may have a few less vindicative insecure teachers who are fine with frank conversation but apparently i'm wrong on all fronts. I guess i'm just not pretentious enough. |
Boondoogle, you've got to understand the K-12 teaching environment in the UAE. Have you taught there? I could quote you the salary ranges at loads of schools. Al Ghad is off the scale in comparison to what other K-12 positions in the UAE are offering. Most of those positions max out at 12,000-13,000 dirhams/month, and that's with additional responsibilities. Rashid School for Boys and Latifa School for Girls in Dubai are perhaps the most selective schools in the emirate, and they bring their teachers in around 12,000/dirhams. The UAE Ministry of Education does not look at those who 'broke the mold' unless the mold involved a teaching qualification. They have very specific restrictions on who gets what kinds of teaching labour card. We're not talking about a TESOL cert, we're talking about a proper certification to teach. There are teachers in the UAE w/o qualifications, but most of them wind up w/ salaries of less than 6000 dirhams/month and a very low accommodation allowance (if any at all) and that's when they're not sharing a flat w/ some other teacher. Legally, many of them are not identified as teachers at all, but more likely put down as a librarian or some other admin position.
In the UAE, as far as the ministry is concerned, paper qualifications are first and foremost, and your work experience is next. Perhaps, like others have mentioned on this board, you will not be in a teaching role.
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| I got an offer but definitely on the low end of the scale at 12,000 AED plus the same package everyone else is getting. This is about what I expected from an entry level EFL position in the middle east. |
"The Middle East" covers a lot of countries, which have very different salary ranges. I can tell you the 12,000 dirhams is not an entry-level wage for ESL in the Gulf countries.
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| Also, I don't see why anyone would accept 7-10,000 when there are less restrictive and higher quality of life regions of the world to work such as Korea and Japan. I'd say they got it exactly right on the nose. |
All I can say is this ain't Korea. The UAE does not have the demand for native speakers that Korea does. It doesn't even have a comparable industry of language academies and kindys. That's why most ESL teachers w/ limited experience don't come to the UAE. It's not financially worth it in most cases.
Jobs w/ the package like Al Ghad are extremely rare. If you've been following this thread, you'll notice we've been trying to identify what made them take one candidate and leave another. The fact you have no experience w/ Arab learners, no teaching qualification, limited experience teaching uni, and no MA TESOL provides no rhyme or reason for their method of selecting candidates. |
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veiledsentiments
Joined: 20 Feb 2003
Posts: 17644
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 4:28 pm Post subject: |
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| boondoggle wrote: |
| veiledsentiments wrote: |
Interesting that they gave you an offer that high based on no related education or experience. That suggest that they are completely desperate. Normally those credentials would get you an offer of 7-10,000.
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Well, I have other skills and relevant life experience aside from the paper qualifications and EFL gift wrapping which is a bit much to get into on this forum. Also, I don't see why anyone would accept 7-10,000 when there are less restrictive and higher quality of life regions of the world to work such as Korea and Japan. I'd say they got it exactly right on the nose.
| Quote: |
Nothing personal boondoggle, but I thought that this program was to be raising the level of local teachers... so wouldn't they want to be hiring people with an education degree and experience teaching children?
VS |
It's not all primary students there are K-10,11,12 students and that's not for the faint of heart or ivory tower educators. . |
Thanks for the good laugh. Are you familiar at all with the Middle East? Obviously not. They couldn't give a rats behind for "life experience" and are obsessed with paper qualifications ignoring all common sense to the contrary.
K-12 = kids in my book... even the first two years in college here is more like teaching 7-8th grade back home based on their general knowledge and life experience.
Considering the politeness level of the responses (and overblown fantasies of self), I suspect that we may not be getting an honest report on the salary offer.... eau de troll?
VS |
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boondoggle
Joined: 25 Jul 2007
Posts: 104
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| Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 4:51 pm Post subject: |
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| stoth1972 wrote: |
The UAE Ministry of Education does not look at those who 'broke the mold' unless the mold involved a teaching qualification. They have very specific restrictions on who gets what kinds of teaching labour card. We're not talking about a TESOL cert, we're talking about a proper certification to teach. There are teachers in the UAE w/o qualifications, but most of them wind up w/ salaries of less than 6000 dirhams/month and a very low accommodation allowance (if any at all) and that's when they're not sharing a flat w/ some other teacher. Legally, many of them are not identified as teachers at all, but more likely put down as a librarian or some other admin position.
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Interesting, and what makes the UAE such a highly desirable place that people will work for subpar <$1700USD global EFL wages that can almost be found anywhere in the much poorer developing countries? I'm not being sarcastic i'm just curious. This sounds like EFL peacocks puffing up their feathers at outside intruders. I suppose you've grouped in non-native speakers into that salary range because it would be pure madness for a native speaker to accept 6000 dirhams ($1634USD) to work illegally. I can name 10 countries off the top of my head that can pay similar wages or much more with lower costs of living, less entry restrictions, and better quality of life standards for non-muslims.
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In the UAE, as far as the ministry is concerned, paper qualifications are first and foremost, and your work experience is next. Perhaps, like others have mentioned on this board, you will not be in a teaching role.
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I'm sure they have their set standards but from what i've been hearing from more enlightened expats this is all subject to supply and demand.This sounds like an issue of the UAE not anticipating supply and demand concerns than anything else. Also rules and regulations may mean heaven and earth for the western world (and delusional expats) but it's just a guideline for the rest of the world.
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Jobs w/ the package like Al Ghad are extremely rare. If you've been following this thread, you'll notice we've been trying to identify what made them take one candidate and leave another. The fact you have no experience w/ Arab learners, no teaching qualification, limited experience teaching uni, and no MA TESOL provides no rhyme or reason for their method of selecting candidates. |
I'm not taking anything for granted. I asked a relatively simple question to begin with but some sensitive souls took it the wrong way and decided to toss some insults in my direction. Either way, I find your distinguishing "arab learners" from other regions of the world to be highly patronizing and borderline racist. Maybe that's the problem..too many egos in western pretty suits in a room |
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boondoggle
Joined: 25 Jul 2007
Posts: 104
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| Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 4:59 pm Post subject: |
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| veiledsentiments wrote: |
K-12 = kids in my book... even the first two years in college here is more like teaching 7-8th grade back home based on their general knowledge and life experience.
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Ah, that's great so you regard your students and young adults to be little more than childlike animations quite unlike the awesome intellectual children in your home country, eh? That is the problem with EFL, you'd fit right in with the 19th century. I'm sure they appreciate having a Jane Goodall of the arab world posting highly insulting remarks about their young adults and looking down on them from above. Even if they lack worldly experience it doesn't mean the faculty isn't there to tap into it. Your attitude reflects a significant unwillingness to even entertain the possibility of something aside from your 4 walls and a roof closed system of learning.
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Considering the politeness level of the responses (and overblown fantasies of self), I suspect that we may not be getting an honest report on the salary offer.... eau de troll?
VS |
Whatever. I wouldn't pay you $5USD to educate my schnauzer. |
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globalnomad2
Joined: 23 Jul 2005
Posts: 562
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| Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 5:25 pm Post subject: |
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Ha! I enjoy your prose, boondoggle, and I--with far too long a sojourn in the Middle East-- agree that life in Japan or Malaysia or almost anywhere in the Far East is preferable. I taught at colleges in Japan back in the day...late 80s and early 90s when they actually paid well. If I could get 80% of the deal I had then, I'd go back. (As it is, I just got a dream job somewhere in a galaxy far, far away, so...'bye to the ME.
But I know VS well from these pages and VS does not view Western students as exalted compared to anyone else. I personally find it more rewarding to teach a mixed class of many nationalities without religious restrictions on topic matter, or a class of American college freshmen. But we can't have everything, and I look forward very much to the culture change at my new undisclosed location (hint: Dick Cheyney won't be there...not US, not Middle East). They say the students are wonderful there. |
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stoth1972
Joined: 16 May 2003
Posts: 674
Location: Seattle, Washington
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| Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 5:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Interesting, and what makes the UAE such a highly desirable place that people will work for subpar <$1700USD global EFL wages that can almost be found anywhere in the much poorer developing countries? I'm not being sarcastic i'm just curious. |
The UAE, for whatever reason (the weather, the nighlife, the liberal lifestyle in some places, the beach) has become an attractive place to work. Not for ESL teachers, but typically for K-12 teachers in international schools and uni teachers. Personally, I preferred living in Egypt, on a comparable salary where the money went further and there was more culture. The situation is what it is. It's desirable to many these days.
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| This sounds like EFL peacocks puffing up their feathers at outside intruders. I suppose you've grouped in non-native speakers into that salary range because it would be pure madness for a native speaker to accept 6000 dirhams ($1634USD) to work illegally. I can name 10 countries off the top of my head that can pay similar wages or much more with lower costs of living, less entry restrictions, and better quality of life standards for non-muslims. |
You might notice that many of us are no longer living in the UAE, and couldn't give a toss about 'outside intruders'. puh-lease. No, that salary range does not include non-native speakers who have even less chance at those jobs in K-12. HCT does hire some fluent non-native speakers, though i believe to keep their English foundation classes w/ native speakers. I don't doubt you can find 10 other countries off the top of your head. That's why most ESOL teachers w/ limited experience and qualifications don't go to the UAE.
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| I'm sure they have their set standards but from what i've been hearing from more enlightened expats this is all subject to supply and demand.This sounds like an issue of the UAE not anticipating supply and demand concerns than anything else. Also rules and regulations may mean heaven and earth for the western world (and delusional expats) but it's just a guideline for the rest of the world. |
lol...more enlightened expats. You think we're making this up? The UAE is about qualifications. This isn't a western thing. It's simply the way the country operates. Anyone who's worked there knows this. That's why your hiring is so unusual to those of us who've been there.
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| I'm not taking anything for granted. I asked a relatively simple question to begin with but some sensitive souls took it the wrong way and decided to toss some insults in my direction. |
Sensative souls? What posts are you reading? Who was upset by you're post? Who was offended by your post? The only person on the defensive here seems to be you.
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| Either way, I find your distinguishing "arab learners" from other regions of the world to be highly patronizing and borderline racist. |
Sweet jesus, you do know what this job is about, right? UAE jobs will commonly ask for experience teaching Arabic-speakers. That's not racist. That's reality. People w/ experience teaching Arabs are preferred candidates in the region.
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| Maybe that's the problem..too many egos in western pretty suits in a room |
Based on this exchange w/ you, I don't see someone who's done much research into the country and seemingly not even much research into the job that you've been offered. Instead, you go on the defensive about your life experience, insullting people who've simply questioned the qualifications which Al Ghad is willing to accept. Accusing me of being a racist for stating that you didn't have experience w/ Arab learners...that was a nice touch. |
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adorabilly
Joined: 20 May 2006
Posts: 430
Location: Ras Al Khaimah
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| Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 6:37 pm Post subject: |
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Boondoggle.
It is funny you come in with what you say is very limited experience teaching in EFL, yet you then run down the salaries offered in most countries and dismissively say you can find 10 countries off the top of your head that pay for bachelors degrees to teach in EFL more than $1,700 a month.
I say you are wrong. The UAE will be our 4th country outside the US we hae taught in and lived in.
Korea
China
Japan
and now the UAE.
The wages are above that at some schools in korea, but they work you hard. low cost of living, but low quality of life.
china the average MA in TESL/TESOL gets about 2,000- to $2,500 us a month. the average bachelors degree wtih certification makes about $1,500 a month. Low cost of living, but HORRID quality of life issues.
Japan- the average salary is about 2,000 a month for a bachelors degree, but I ahve seen it as low as 1,000. People with MA's get about 3,000 a month.
And then you get to the uae. a ma and experience can get you about 3,000 to 4,500 a month (depending on experience), and often the bachelors degrees get that 1,700 a month.
I can think of maybe 4 countries that get more than $1,700 a month, but the cost of living in ALL of them is higher thatn the US.
The vast majority of developing nations can pay about $1,000 a month (and that is a good school in those countries).
that is why there are plenty of people who will come to the UAE and make 7,000 durhams a month because there are very few of the other "plum" positions out there. |
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veiledsentiments
Joined: 20 Feb 2003
Posts: 17644
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 8:24 pm Post subject: |
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Don't feed the troll...
VS |
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