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773
Joined: 29 May 2005
Posts: 213
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 Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2007 8:07 pm Post subject: |
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| PM me if you have any questions about working in the UAE...I will be there in two weeks and can give you some feedback once I arrive. Best of luck to you! |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2007 3:13 am Post subject: Re: Back in the Saddle...Again! |
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Thanks for the update and I am pleased to hear that you are happy with the results so far. Some further comments from me for what that may be worth:
| Pow3hatan wrote: |
| I'm not going to get into the whole "foreigners vs Taiwanese" thing here since it was not the focus of my original post. I"ll just say that it definitely plays a relevant role in what has happened and is transpiring at the school I'm battling. |
OK I respect the fact that you seem to want to distance yourself from discussion of this but on the off chance that you would like to explain the above here is what I would like to know. Other than the language barrier difficulties, what makes you feel that you being a foreigner plays a part in the initial accusation and/or the aftermath? How do you think that this would have been handled differently if you were a local Chinese teacher as opposed to a foreign teacher?
| Pow3hatan wrote: |
| Another important point to keep in mind in my situation is that this is a public college and as such is under some very different regulations and laws - the Teachers Law - than buxibans. This means that some services such as labor mediation, free legal aid, etc are not available to me through the Council of Labor Affairs. There is a different process to go through through the school and the Ministry of Education. |
I think that you will find that this is incorrect for a number of reasons.
Firstly the Employment Services Act covers all workers in Taiwan - both foreign and local - and within this act are categories of worker. There is some differentiation between the classes of foreign worker within the Employment Services Act, but nothing that would be relevant to whether or not the Act applies to you. It does just as it applies to every other worker in Taiwan.
Secondly, free legal services and labor mediation are available to all workers in Taiwan regardless of whether you are a Chinese or a foreigner, and regardless of whether you are a CEO or a blue collar worker. Some of the mediation services are geared to certain groups (such as the blue collar foreign workers groups) but you are certainly entitled to and able to seek free mediation and legal assistance.
Thirdly, and in relation to the above, Taipei city (and perhaps some other cities in Taiwan) offer free legal consultation sessions in English. This is general legal advisory assistance only however and is not intended as legal representation. Again this is available to everyone and is not dictated by the nature of the problem nor the nature of who you are.
So while the advice on this board generally specifies the CLA link as this is the one that applies to most users of this board, the MOE does not proclude you from availing yourself of these services.
| Pow3hatan wrote: |
| However, both I and the lawyer left the meeting feeling that the 3 committee members had already made up their minds I was guilty. |
No offence intended here but was that really surprising. I think it highly likely that a guy would automatically be seen as guilty in a case like this. It is sad but it is a fact.
| Pow3hatan wrote: |
| Because of the too often negative tone of their questioning or responses to my answers, I had to keep reminding myself and the committee members that I'm supposed to be innocent until proven guilty, not the other way around. |
Is the 'innocent until proven guilty' element of law applicable here in Taiwan? I am not so sure it is. It would be great if it was, but if it is not then continually pointing this out will probably not help your case too much as it is just not recognized.
| Pow3hatan wrote: |
| I stated already in my first post that I did touch the student's SHOULDER to get her attention before speaking...not even close to her waist. |
Out of curiosity is there a distinction being made by the school between a touch of the waist and a touch of the shoulder? I assume that you have conceded that you did touch the student on the shoulder so are they pursuing 'touching' as being inappropriate or 'touching of the waist' as being inappropriate. Don't get me wrong, I personally do not feel that touching a 20 something student on the waist is necessarily inappropriate but I am just curious as to the schools view on this.
| Pow3hatan wrote: |
| In fact, nothing they told me about the student's accusation would hold up in a good court of law. Just her accusation, and a classmate witness who backed up her story. |
To be honest I think that you would find that a student accusation of inappropriate touching backed up by a witness acount is probably as strong a case as you can get in this type of situation. That is the nature of these kinds of cases.
| Pow3hatan wrote: |
| Although the burden is not supposed to be on me to prove I'm innocent, I have much more solid proof that nothing happened, including 2 witnesses who backed up my story plus photos and video covering very close to the time of the alleged touching. |
Theoretically the onus may not be on you to prove your innocence but the reality is that you do have to. I really think that this would be true in this kind of employer based hearing back in the US too.
When you say that you have two witnesses yourself what exactly can they attest to? That they didn't see you touch the girl? Or that they were watching you the whole time and that it was impossible that you could have touched the girl?
What does the video and photo evidence prove exactly? How does it proove that you didn't touch the girl?
Seems to me that anything short of you being on the video screen the whole time is not actually proof. Again the nature of these types of accusations is that you are very vulnerable.
| Pow3hatan wrote: |
| ...and he did a great job of explaining the legal aspects of this accusation that the committee members seemed to ignore or be ignorant of. |
Perhaps you cannot mention these at this time but if you can it would be good to hear how a Taiwanese views the situation and what he says as being the problems with this case.
| Pow3hatan wrote: |
| I think it was Clark who stated he thought it unnecessary to have legal representation. Well, maybe for a tax or salary problem you might make it on your own, but if you�re accused of sexual harassment, sexual assault, or you were illegally/unfairly dismissed from your job you won�t stand a snowball's chance of overturning the accusation or dismissal without someone knowledgeable about the relevant laws here. |
My comments were general in nature and were aimed more towards that old falicy of foreigners having no rights in Taiwan and the suggestion that we are disadvantaged as we cannot all afford to hire a lawyer to help us. My point is that in most cases you don't need a lawyer.
I totally agree with you that some cases warrant legal representation and if I were in your case I would also have the services of a lawyer on my side. I think that you have certainly been taking the right course of action.
| Pow3hatan wrote: |
| They can then accept or change the investigation committee's decision and then notify me of the result. Sometime in August is when I'm supposed to get the result. |
My understanding is that in the worst case scenario they find that the accusation was warranted and as such they confirm their decision to not continue your employment.
Of course if you are innocent then the above would be very unpleasant news to hear, but what are the rammifications beyond this school. I mean this is not a legal hearing right, so there is no legal concerns, it is just a case of deciding whether or not an employee should be let go. Do I understand this correctly?
| Pow3hatan wrote: |
| I'll post again later about the other raging battle...the appeal against the school's illegal non-renewal of my teaching contract. |
How is it illegal for a school to choose to renew your contract? |
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forest1979
Joined: 10 Jun 2007
Posts: 507
Location: SE Asia
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| Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2007 10:28 am Post subject: |
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| Clark - Just accept for once that someone is experiencing circumstances and engaging in a legal process that you may be don't know everything about. As someone who purports to be a fountain of common sense you should follow you own philosophy, thereby not making judgments in ditrabes about anyone who does things or thinks differently to what you would do. It's obvious that Pow3hatan has a personal moral interpretation of what has happened to him/her, given his/her first hand experiences of what happened and accordingly it allows him/her (for better or worse) to clear his/her name by whatever means are at his/her disposal in order to have a job before the new academic year starts! Just because you would do it your way doesn't necessarily make it any better than anyone else. At the same time Pow3hatan has stated his/her purpose for contesting the accusations as it, the claim of inappropriate behavior, has been the motive behind the non-renewal of his/her contract. Whether this is legal or not, as Pow3hatan has suggested there is a morality to this and as someone foreign in a foreign land more power to him/her for standing for their rights. At the very least you should be supporting Pow3hatan's actions and not getting on your high horse by acting like Colombo. |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 10:10 am Post subject: |
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How exactly does asking questions and carrying on a discussion eqaute to getting on a high horse? I think that you need to chill out forest.
He posted his story on a public forum and as a member of this forum I am giving my opinion. Where in the rules does it say that we must agree with others?
Finally, I believe that the content of my post should be helpful as it gives another side to the story. I don't see much point in ignoring that fact as ignoring it won't make it go away. |
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JZer
Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3898
Location: Pittsburgh
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| Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 12:09 am Post subject: |
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The same situation back home would likely be greeted with the same procedures that are being conducted here.
I am not saying that it is fair particularly if the OP is innocent, but I don�t agree that this is a foreigner/Taiwanese issue! |
Yes, two football players were kicked out of an American university recently when a female student said they raped her. She decided not to press charges and the students were expelled from the university. They may have been guilty but it really seems like a he said she said story. |
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Pow3hatan
Joined: 22 Jun 2007
Posts: 232
Location: INDONESIA
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| Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 2:24 pm Post subject: Next Chapter |
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Before I detail some of the latest key events of my contract non-renewal tussle, I'll respond to some things Clark said/asked in his July 29 post.
First, thanks for the feedback about the availability of legal services, mediation, etc to all workers in Taiwan. If I do go that route somewhere in my battle against the Dark Forces at NTCN I hope that it's as easy to get and helpful as you make it sound.
| Quote: |
| Is the 'innocent until proven guilty' element of law applicable here in Taiwan? I am not so sure it is. It would be great if it was, but if it is not then continually pointing this out will probably not help your case too much as it is just not recognized. |
Whether or not it commonly applies here will not stop me from reminding anyone involved in this case that it's supposed to apply. It's a universal concept and if I have to be the one to make the people involved recognize this then so be it. On this point I'll keep beating the dead horse so long as it's there!
| Quote: |
When you say that you have two witnesses yourself what exactly can they attest to? That they didn't see you touch the girl? Or that they were watching you the whole time and that it was impossible that you could have touched the girl?
What does the video and photo evidence prove exactly? How does it proove that you didn't touch the girl?
Seems to me that anything short of you being on the video screen the whole time is not actually proof. Again the nature of these types of accusations is that you are very vulnerable. |
Were you one of the interrogators at my investigation committee meeting? You sure sound like one of 'em!  I don't have to prove I didn't touch the girl or have a video showing all of my movements the entire time of the activity! She's gotta prove I did touch her on the waist...all the better if she had some "hard" evidence of it such as photos, video, prints, etc.
Proof of sexual harassment is not just in a single act...there have to be some leading events that would suggest the intent of sexual harassment...plus, very importantly, there has to be proof that the offender committed such an act with the goal of obtaining some favor or withholding something (salary, a grade, etc) from the victim. The video & photos show there were no leading events and the accuser interacting with me as normal...in fact, staying very close to me.
She was not my student and I had no other significant or personal involvement with her...thus, I had no favor to gain and nothing to deny her.
The accusation is that I touched her on the waist.
| Quote: |
My understanding is that in the worst case scenario they find that the accusation was warranted and as such they confirm their decision to not continue your employment.
Of course if you are innocent then the above would be very unpleasant news to hear, but what are the rammifications beyond this school. I mean this is not a legal hearing right, so there is no legal concerns, it is just a case of deciding whether or not an employee should be let go. Do I understand this correctly? |
Actually, the school contends that the sexual harassment accusation has nothing to do with the decision not to renew my contract. I have proof otherwise. Although this is not strictly a legal matter at this stage, just the accusation, having spread out to students, faculty, and staff at the college illegally, has already sullied my character and reputation. Plus, if I don't clear this up then it's likely the school would mention this accusation to any future employer asking for a reference - here in Taiwan as well as outside including the U.S. where I'm from.
| Quote: |
| How is it illegal for a school to choose to renew your contract? |
Lots of ways my friend! I can't go into detail at this stage about exactly what happened to me, but put simply the school first approved my contract renewal, gave me my schedule for next academic year, then did an about face soon after...but did not give me official notice until June 27...just 34 days before the expiration of my contract and work visa. |
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jwbhomer
Joined: 14 Dec 2003
Posts: 876
Location: CANADA
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| Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 5:34 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry. "Innocent until proven guilty" is NOT a universal concept. Being an American, you probably think that legal systems everywhere are, or ought to be, modelled on the Anglo-American common law, but they are NOT. In the European legal systems that are modelled on Roman law, the accused must prove his innocence, the reverse of the common law. Many developing countries, including China, have based their legal systems on the European system.
Don't bother telling me you're being persecuted in Taiwan, not China. I know which forum I'm in. I'm just saying that there's no grounds for your assumption that the legal principles which apply in the USA should apply in Taiwan.
Your problem is that you failed to heed the advice given to Caesar's wife. It's not enough to avoid evil; you must avoid even the appearance of evil. Somehow you did something which someone thought appeared to be wrong, and now you're paying the price. |
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forest1979
Joined: 10 Jun 2007
Posts: 507
Location: SE Asia
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| Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 12:12 am Post subject: |
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| The last poster has some good point to make. Don't expect universal rules apply in cultures such as Taiwan. It's more a case of guilty until proven innocent, and a case of yuo being guilty if intent can be found (just as much as action). That's the impression I got at least from a lot of college committees when people were accused of things. |
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Pow3hatan
Joined: 22 Jun 2007
Posts: 232
Location: INDONESIA
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| Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 2:21 am Post subject: Universal concepts |
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Point well taken from jwbhomer about the non-universality of innocent until proven guilty.
However, in Taiwan, the committee in my case and others say the law here is supposed to treat one as innocent until proven guilty...although the reality is often the opposite. As long as the law states one is innocent until proven guilty, that is the tack I will pursue and emphasize to all concerned in my case.
With that said, of course, I have also done what I should to prove that I am innocent...and according to all I've read so far about this kind of case...there really is no case of sexual harassment here, even according to the Gender Equity statutes. Just because the reality here is counter to the law (or even resembles what happens in other parts of the world) doesn't mean I'm gonna fold up and let them do as they please. If one can not try to uphold/protect their integrity, their character, the very essence of who they are...then what is worth upholding? Win or lose...mine are worth upholding/protecting...and the evil that have perpetrated this are very worth seeing punished if possible.
Apparently, I'm also being used for the amusement and practice of some who seem to know less about what is sexual harassment than a novice...and who may not care what it really is either.
I don't where some of you "prickly" people are coming from:
| Quote: |
Don't bother telling me you're being persecuted in Taiwan, not China. I know which forum I'm in. I'm just saying that there's no grounds for your assumption that the legal principles which apply in the USA should apply in Taiwan.
Your problem is that you failed to heed the advice given to Caesar's wife. It's not enough to avoid evil; you must avoid even the appearance of evil. Somehow you did something which someone thought appeared to be wrong, and now you're paying the price. |
but, don't bother telling me something I haven't said, putting words in my mouth, or assuming you know what has happened. If I were to heed the advice given to Caesar's wife, then I would never have set foot in Taiwan...or, for that matter, ever set foot outside of my apartment back home. Evil is everywhere...and it's ugly appearance does not always give us the benefit of time to avoid it.
I appreciate any useful, interesting, and constructive feedback from others on this forum...but don't give me your mini lectures based on your speculation of what's happened or based on your own agendas you wish to spread.
My intent for opening this topic is to share a story of what can happen in a school & administrators gone awry, and hopefully get some relevant feedback. I am not Taiwan bashing, nor am I trying to make controversial comparisons between Taiwan and my own country (or others). Let's not turn this topic into something it is not. |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 4:52 am Post subject: Re: Next Chapter |
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Pow3hatan as you obviously realize, whether I agree with you or not is of no consequence to your situation. But perhaps you can also realize that if you can�t provide a convincing argument here then I am not sure that you are going to be able to convince them there either.
Quite clearly your aim is a reasonable one � you want to clear your name of this injustice as you see it. I am sure that if I were in your situation that I would have exactly the same aim as yourself. But perhaps the way that you are approaching this whole thing is not the best way to do it.
As has been pointed out the �innocent until proven guilty� thing doesn�t fly here whether you think it should or not. So if you keep pushing that you may end up isolating yourself from the proceedings.
| Pow3hatan wrote: |
| Were you one of the interrogators at my investigation committee meeting? |
Nope I am just interested in knowing how the video serves as proof that you are innocent which is what you indicated in your earlier post. I assume that you are holding this video evidence up to the committee as proof of your innocence but I can�t see how this proves your innocence unless you are being filmed the whole time. Are you?
From what I understand there is an accusation and a witness that corraborates the accusation. In your defence you have a couple of witnesses who can attest that they didn't see anything untoward but cannot obviously guarantee that nothing happened. And video evidence that doesn't show anything untoward but can't be used as prove that nothing happened out of shot. Is that about right?
| Pow3hatan wrote: |
| I don't have to prove I didn't touch the girl or have a video showing all of my movements the entire time of the activity! She's gotta prove I did touch her on the waist...all the better if she had some "hard" evidence of it such as photos, video, prints, etc. |
I totally disagree with you on this. I am not saying that it is right, but it would be foolish to continue to ignore the reality.
In a case like this, regardless of whether it is here in Taiwan or back home, the guy almost always needs to prove his innocence if he wants to clear his name. Individuals in the US have ended up in the clink for less than an accusation with a corroborating witness so I wouldn't expect a university ethics committee to be more careful than that.
My advice is that you bite the bullet on your preconceived notions that you should be able to sit back and let them prove their case and actually get out there and prove her wrong if you can do that. If you can�t prove your innocence then pray that things will turn out for the best.
| Pow3hatan wrote: |
Proof of sexual harassment is not just in a single act...there have to be some leading events that would suggest the intent of sexual harassment...plus, very importantly, there has to be proof that the offender committed such an act with the goal of obtaining some favor or withholding something (salary, a grade, etc) from the victim. The video & photos show there were no leading events and the accuser interacting with me as normal...in fact, staying very close to me.
She was not my student and I had no other significant or personal involvement with her...thus, I had no favor to gain and nothing to deny her. |
I am not so sure that any of this is going to make a real difference. Whether you are being accused of sexual harassment, indecent behavior, or conduct unbecoming of a teacher, or whatever�the most important thing I would think would be to clear your name if you are innocent. If you get hung up on the definitions of the terms as you interpret them in relation to your experience from back home then you are probably not going to get very far.
| Pow3hatan wrote: |
| Although this is not strictly a legal matter at this stage, just the accusation, having spread out to students, faculty, and staff at the college illegally, has already sullied my character and reputation. Plus, if I don't clear this up then it's likely the school would mention this accusation to any future employer asking for a reference - here in Taiwan as well as outside including the U.S. where I'm from. |
Fair enough. I am sure that everyone can understand this and even though I may not appear to support you I do in this regard � especially if you are innocent.
| Pow3hatan wrote: |
| Quote: |
| How is it illegal for a school to choose to renew your contract? |
Lots of ways my friend! I can't go into detail at this stage about exactly what happened to me, but put simply the school first approved my contract renewal, gave me my schedule for next academic year, then did an about face soon after...but did not give me official notice until June 27...just 34 days before the expiration of my contract and work visa. |
None of that would be illegal.
If your employer revoked their offer prior to you signing a new contract then there is nothing here but a case of an employer deciding not re-employ a contract worker.
If you signed a new contract for the new year and the employer revoked this then at worst you have a civil complaint against them but nothing illegal. As the contract term has not yet started I think that it would be difficult for you to prove a case for damages but good luck anyway.
I don't disagree with the essence of what you are trying to do, I just don't agree with the logic that you are applying in your efforts to achieve your aims. |
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Pow3hatan
Joined: 22 Jun 2007
Posts: 232
Location: INDONESIA
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| Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 10:31 am Post subject: To agree or disagree? |
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| Fair enough Clark...you are entitled to your opinion, views and decisions how you would handle such a situation. Whether you support me or not, agree with me or not is not my objective. I appreciate that you take the time and to share your thoughts on what I've said. It's a reasonable counterpoint and gives me another angle on things I might not have thought of. |
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Pow3hatan
Joined: 22 Jun 2007
Posts: 232
Location: INDONESIA
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| Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 7:53 am Post subject: To 773 |
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| So...how's teaching and life in the UAE? |
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Pow3hatan
Joined: 22 Jun 2007
Posts: 232
Location: INDONESIA
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| Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 8:04 am Post subject: The Decision |
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I got the school's decision on Sept. 4, and, unsurprisingly, they supported the student's accusation (see translation of the decision). They even had the balls to add something else false about the student's emotional and psychological well-being! I've already got that lie covered.
Also, not surprisingly, they still had no evidence to prove the student's allegation and they totally ignored my video & photo evidence plus the statements of two college staff there at the activity who said nothing happened. I was told by an insider soon after the decision that this could be the only possible outcome because the fix has been in since the start! They conveniently changed their reason for not renewing my contract (as originally given to me in a letter signed by the college president).
I have to submit my one appeal to the decision and after the response then my turn for action can commence. They figured me wrong when they predicted I would just go away without any challenge. My time is coming to turn the tables around and expose those responsible for this sordid affair.
I. The results of this case are based on the rules of gender equality.
II. The following results are sustained by the investigation of this committee.
1. According to the statement of all interviewed students, it showed consistence with the course(or procedure), the subject matter (or content), and the sequence of this incident are adoptable.
2. Before the incident, the relationship between the teacher and the student was good and friendly, so the committee excluded the possibility that the student intended to attract the teacher�s attention.
3. The testimony of the witness(es?) is adoptable and consistent with the student�s (Ms Young�s).
4. After the incident, the student apparently appeared to have social withdrawal, depression, weeping, and emotional trauma.
III. This committee presumed that this unfavorable situation is not good for the student�s learning at this college, so the committee suggests terminating the hiring contract of this teacher.
IV. After receiving this document, the teacher may appeal against this decision. If so, please submit the formal written appealing document within 20 days. The appeal can only be accepted once.
Pow3hatan
*Please see my earlier posts for background on this situation |
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773
Joined: 29 May 2005
Posts: 213
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| Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 10:19 am Post subject: Re: To 773 |
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| Pow3hatan wrote: |
| So...how's teaching and life in the UAE? |
The quality of life is excellent, as are the pay and benefits. The food absolutely rocks, and overall the cost of living is cheaper than Taiwan. It's clean, landscaped, and classy.
Drawbacks: No interaction with the local people, and some places (like where I am, in Al Ain) can be a bit quiet and dull. But, if you are not a party animal, it would suit you.
Of course there is Dubai, which is extremely lively. The problem with it, though, is that it is wrought with construction and looks a bit like a war zone as a result.
Overall, I wouldn't trade the UAE for Taiwan for anything. Many of the teachers I have met here have worked previously in Korea or Taiwan, and consider the UAE to be a breath of fresh air. I highly recommend it!!!!! |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 4:27 am Post subject: Re: The Decision |
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Genuinely sorry to hear that the outcome was not a favorable one.
As an outsider looking in however I am not clear as to how the school could have come to any other decision. The way that the school came to their decision seems logical to me and they are giving you the opportunity to appeal which seems fair.
Considering that none of them or us were actually there we can only go off what is presented to us and if the girl had witnesses that stated that something did happen, while you have witnesses that state only that they did not see anything happen - I can't see how the decision could have gone another way.
| Pow3hatan wrote: |
| Also, not surprisingly, they still had no evidence to prove the student's allegation and they totally ignored my video & photo evidence plus the statements of two college staff there at the activity who said nothing happened. |
I think that you could consider corroborating witnesses to be evidence in this case. What other evidence could she produce - fingerprints, DNA?
I am still curious about the photo and video 'evidence' that you keep referring to. What is that actually evidence of? That you weren't caught on camera, or that you never touched her? I mean for it to be evidence of your innocence it would have to be the latter so is that what it shows?
| Pow3hatan wrote: |
| I was told by an insider soon after the decision that this could be the only possible outcome because the fix has been in since the start! |
Well as an outsider it seems pretty clear to me that there could not really have been any other logical outcome. You are behind the eight ball already when it comes to such an accusation, but add to that corroborating witnesses on her side and I think that it becomes pretty clear that there is no other outcome here.
One thing about the schools information that puzzles me is the emotional distress thing. I don't think that it matters whether this was raised at the beginning or at the end, but I am surprised at the degree to which the distress is outlined. I mean weeping, withdrawal, depression - for a touch on the waist!! I somewhat doubt that anyone, let alone the equity board of a university, would consider such to be legitimate results of an unwanted touch on the waist. It seems pretty clear to me that the alleged contact was more physical than a simple touch on the waste - whether Pow3hatan is aware of that or not. Is the girl perhaps claiming that more happened than a touch on the waist? That would certainly fit more inline with the distress angle and the outcome.
Regardless of all of the above I hope that you do pursue the appeal angle as in the very least it will hopefully reassure you that the decision has been reviewed fairly, and of course there is always the hope that things will go in your favor as proof of your innocence. |
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