Job Discussion Forums

isa · Joined: 31 Oct 2003 Posts: 6

Hi, everyone! I would like to teach English in Turkey (and I'm working towards getting the proper credentials for this: degree, CELTA, etc.). However, though English is my first language, I'm neither caucasian nor from North America or the UK. Will this make getting a job teaching English difficult for me, as it would be in Asia (ChinaJapanKorea)?

ghost · Joined: 30 Jan 2003 Posts: 1693 Location: Saudi Arabia

Should not be a problem in Turkey. There is no evidence of discrimination here. A small number of non whites teach in Turkey, and have never heard of a problem.

The footballers from places like Brazil (Prates) report being very well treated in Turkey...which was not the case in some of the other countries they played in ....

If you speak fluent English that is the main pre-requisite.

Be prepared for a lot of 'curious' questions...but that is the Turkish way.

isa · Joined: 31 Oct 2003 Posts: 6

That's a major relief! Thanks so much. Very Happy

I won't have any problem with "curious" questions, as I come from a culture where the question "are you married?" is a normal icebreaker.

Mike_2003 · Joined: 27 Mar 2003 Posts: 344 Location: Bucharest, Romania

I know a Nigerian who has his own school here. I know a few of his students and they love him. No problem at all except, as the previous poster says, maybe a few more curious, but largely innocent, questions than usual.

yaramaz · Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2003 11:26 am Post subject:

Actually, I just wanted to throw in a small hesitant caveat, which is second hand knowledge... last year in Ankara I met an African American man who played pro basketball for a Turkish team and had lived there 4 years, was marrying a Turkish woman, and spoke excellent Turkish. He told me that at first everything was great, that he was treated well and not with any apparent racism or excessive embarrassing curiosity. However, once he met his fiancee and improved his Turkish, he started understanding peoples' whispered passing comments. Basically, it sounded like an awful lot of n*gger type words, derogatory comments about his appearance, and so forth. By the time I met him, he was pretty fed up with it. He told me he has confronted several whisperers in Turkish, which really threw them off! Racism is there, it's just very hidden. They will never insult you to your face but they may whisper things as you go by.

However, an interesting thing to note... Turks come in a wide variety of skin shades, from Irish pale or freckled to quite, quite dark. I haven't witnessed much discrimination along those lines in my classes- little girls who look Bangladeshi play happily with the little Russian-faced girls and they don't seem to notice or care. This is great. However, you will also notice that darker people tend to marry darker people, lighter marry lighter. Also, where I live, the lighter skinned people tend to have money and the darker ones tend to be poorer. However, factors other than skin colour or appearance are probably the reasons: darker skinned people are very likely to be Kurdish... which, in Turkey, is far worse than being African or Asian...

isa · Joined: 31 Oct 2003 Posts: 6

Thanks for the encouraging news, and for the caveat as well. As long as I don't become a victim of discrimination when it comes to employment opportunities, I'll be happy. Aside from possible (discreet) racism outside the classroom, are there any more difficulties I may encounter, being female, in my twenties, and looking Japanese? Smile

ghost · Joined: 30 Jan 2003 Posts: 1693 Location: Saudi Arabia

[quote]However, once he met his fiancee and improved his Turkish, he started understanding peoples' whispered passing comments. Basically, it sounded like an awful lot of n*gger type words, derogatory comments about his appearance, and so forth. By the time I met him, he was pretty fed up with it. He told me he has confronted several whisperers in Turkish, which really threw them off! Racism is there, it's just very hidden. They will never insult you to your face but they may whisper things as you go by. (end of quote).

The above point illustrates the hypocrisy present in the persona of the average Turk.

Even well educated Turks harbor misconceptions with regard to people of color. For example you will hear (a comment by a teacher at T�mer) 'all Japanese are clever' or other such things. They will have other generaliztions with regard to other races and nationalities. Those are givens but we will not go back to that discussion again.

In Isa's case all of this will be a non-issue, because people who appear Japanese in Turkey are very well treated and respected. Hotel owners and Pansiyon owners appreciate them because they are generally quiet and clean. They create a very good impression here.

But to go back to the above quote with regard to the derogatory remarks from Turks with regard to blacks, this mainly affects those people of color who settle in the country on a permanent basis and compete with the locals for women and other coveted possessions. In those cases you will see the true base nature (with the savage element) of the Turks come to light and it is not always pretty. But no...no overt racism in Turkey. It is more in the form of silly comments that get thrown around.

dmb · Joined: 12 Feb 2003 Posts: 8397

A few years ago I tried to recruit a teacher from Nigeria. He started working for me but his work permit was turned down because he wasn't a native speaker. He didn't speak any other language. Ignorance of office staff at Milli Egitim could maybe cause problems.

FGT · Joined: 14 Sep 2003 Posts: 762 Location: Turkey

Who's racist here?

ghost · Joined: 30 Jan 2003 Posts: 1693 Location: Saudi Arabia

No, you are wrong about the assumption. Just saying what the Turkish hotel and Pansiyon owners have told me. They tend to like the Japanese clients for the reasons which were mentioned previously - and they are generally quiet and respectful. They do not trash the rooms like some people of other nations do...including some of the nations which some of the posters on this forum come from (unfortunately). If you do not believe this...you are invited to inspect some of the rooms in the Pansiyons in the old town of Antalya and you will see what the owners are talking about.

These are experiences which people go through...so it is normal that if hotel/pansiyon owners see people behave in certain ways they will form judgments and opinions about those people. We are all 'small ambassadors' for the countries whose passports we travel with whether we like it or not....and we (and all the previous others with the same passport) will be judged in a global way by the Turks.....

That is why many U.S. natives when they travel prefer to claim they are Canadian, because they know they will be judged more favourably with that false claim. Many American backpackers even stick the maple leaf on their backpacks. No one hates Canadians....it is probably one of the best passports to carry.....even if this is not justified.

This false attribution of Canadians being 'better and more educated' than Americans is grossly unfair to Americans who travel and teach English.

Turkish hotel and Pansiyon owners always ask newcomers where they are from. Why do they do this? For several reasons. One of them is an economic one. They tend to assume that people from certain developed nations have the ability to pay more money than people from other nations. If you do not believe this...try this game with Pansiyon owners and you will see that it works. If you claim that you are from a country such as Brazil or Argentina ...you will generally be able to negotiate a lower price than if you admit to being from one of the wealthy North American or European countries.

Even T�mer, the celebrated language school, is on that game. They charge students from first world nations $240 for the 80 hour one month course. But they only charge students $120 if they are from countries like Bangladesh, Quatar, Azerbaijan, Kazakstan, Mongolia.

dmb · Joined: 12 Feb 2003 Posts: 8397

FGT, haven't you yet sussed out that Ghost's opinion of everyone and everything is .... how canI put this... kind of negative. What does one have to do to get in to his good books?

FGT · Joined: 14 Sep 2003 Posts: 762 Location: Turkey

Dmb - Yes, I think I have a pretty good idea where he's coming from. Yes, he is negative about absolutely everything. BUT, I keep thinking that there is a living, breathing, thinking, teaching human being out there, and I'm hoping he may show it one day. While he was in Romania he and I were in touch. He wants to communicate, therefore, one day, he will discover something that is good for him. I hope.

Byzantine · Joined: 19 Sep 2003 Posts: 55 Location: Southwest

isa, I just wanted to second yaramaz' caveat. I taught for two years in Istanbul, and I did meet a few students who seemed to have formed some racial opinions based on American movies and TV. For example (exaggerated): "Black people are criminals, I've seen Boys in the Hood."

It was in no way the norm, though. Just thought I should throw it out there. I think you should definitely go for it.

Belmont · Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2003 5:30 am Post subject:

to dmb: As I was reading ghost's comments I was thinking how insightful and totally true-to-life they were. Upon reading your comments further down the thread about how negative ghost was being I was amazed. Facing the truth is not always pleasant, but can be very enlightening. The messenger isn't the one to criticize.

yaramaz · Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2003 6:51 am Post subject:

In this post, I'm fine with ghosts posts, but on other threads he has said a lot of very negative things that many people found to be sweepingly condemnatory and occasionally offensive. That may be why people are picking on his milder remarks here, because of their past experience with his posts.