Job Discussion Forums

[Ping Jing]

Personally, I think that Ownerism and Super Mario are the same. I wouldn't be surprised if the other Aussie agitator who took a liking to me was him as well.

Good Day Mate!

[vikuk]

To understand differences in the concepts of ESL and EFL - think in terms of learning Chinese (CSL and CFL). When in China the Ft is of course plunged into a Chinese (dominated) speaking environment and can't help picking up points of language - even if they don't have any interest in learning Chinese - the language immersion effect. Whilst we have heard, here in the forums, of folk who have struggled away at learning Chinese, in lessons outside China - indeed they learnt over a 1000 characters - but were extremely weak in the field of verbal communication since they had relatively little time (main language contact the classes) to speak with and listen to native speakers of Chinese.

So in short to understand ESL (where the learnt language is pressed onto you as if it were a second language - something that comes via the language that dominates your local environment) or EFL (where the language is totally foreign to the environment - and is usualy something that comes through language classes) - think over, through your China experience, where you would be best able to learn Chinese - in China or at home � and then think how the jobs of an ESL and EFL teacher may differ!!!!

As for Ona nizm and his remarks on the dichotomy between the EFL and ESL concepts - after his remark -

[Brian Caulfield]

My biggest problem is to get the students to do things on their own , especially the well heeled . The Chinese teacher gives and gives . They are used to waiting for translations . They want to be good at English just for the mark they get. They see no point in learning for pleasure . They are product orientated versus process orientated. I agree the farmers kids are the most rewarding to teach .

[Ona Nizm]

Vifuk, I don't think I overlooked the good contributions of science, geography, PE teachers because as I said in my first response: "A lot of effort by NSs and NNSs alike has garnered such great results" - context again my boy - how can that be boasting - oh are you under the assumption that only NSs can be science, geography, PE teachers in such a language rich environment?

[eslstudies]

Even with a theme pub and a chippie, its still not an ESL environment, which by definition is a native speaking one.
And probably if you hadn't called me a "sheet teacher" initially, apparently whilst well into your cups, I might not have responded so robustly.
As for the "idiot" comment, well if I can earn top ESL dollar in a Western country as I do, then I'm a happy idiot.

[vikuk]

Dearest Ona, in what context did you write your posts?
Was it to get other FT�s who teach at normal day schools to complain to their employers that they�ll never be able to get them rich kids to learn English unless all the teaching by all the teachers is carried out in English?

I wrote mine within a far less radical context, with a view to making other FT�s � those who teach in those normal "dominated by the Chinese language" situations - aware of the ideas that went behind the ESL and EFL philosophies � thus enabling them to react in a professional and thinking way to their own Chinese teaching situations. For example � if they teach small children (or indeed any students with very little English) and were asked to create an English only teaching environment during 30 minute lessons, because English immersion teaching (reminding us of the ESL concept) has been documented to be an effective method in the west. Well reading my post would give them ground for thought if they started to ponder over the reasoning behind this request � after all true language immersion is something more than a student's brief contact with the FT � and the infantile premise of - the more English students hear the more they�ll learn!!!!
Maybe my post will also get some readers to realise that in the normal context of English education in China (EFL) � then the use of the Chinese language within the English classroom (at least in the initial stages of learning) � can be a mighty powerful tool in an FT�s quest to develop the English fluency of their students (scaffolding).

[Ona Nizm]

Fair points both. I'm just peeved about England taking a thrashing by India. Eslstudies will no doubt understand that.
Apologies for my slander.

[eslstudies]

Accepted with thanks.
The place you're working at sounds good and must give a lot of job satisfaction. I was originally sounding off about little emperors who've been handed everything on a plate up until now. Most Chinese students OS aren't at all like that.

[SnoopBot]

To answer the original question, Why?

"Why do the rich kids have a lower ability compared to the poor students who did not have a FT to teach them."

The same reason in western countries, the poor Chinese parents will insure that their kid must master everything expected, even if it means 24/7 with no break, weekend school and 18 hours of study a day.

They know the only way to make it up in the ant society is possibly getting an education.

Now, the rich kids have no pressure most are spoiled brats just like here in the west. Does anyone think Paris Hilton was a good student while she was in High-School (if she made it that far)

Some things are always the same regardless of country or cultural background.

[eslstudies]

[Ona Nizm]

I've certainly had my fair share of little rich princes and princesses. But the learning environment is so important. There's a lot of money floating around here - a lot - but I just haven't seen that obnoxious attitude with my students. Compare that with a similar programme I was involved with a couple years ago (same age, same goals) and the students were right little 'twunts' (I hate to admit). But the ethos of the school from the Principal on down was so different. Both operations, by the way, are geared towards making money but at least here educational concerns are actually prioriotised (spelling?) whereas there they were given short-shrift. My students appreciate the work all of us are doing for them. And so do their parents. The degree of transparency works in the best interests for all. And you know what - from what I hear, my old programme is really struggling with student intake whereas this one is just booming. It pays in the end, one way or another.