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Cleopatra
Joined: 28 Jun 2003
Posts: 3657
Location: Tuamago Archipelago
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 Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 5:51 am Post subject: |
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| Any expat with a PhD in engineering or medicine working in Saudi most likely has US/UK/AU/CA nationality, |
It may have been the case 10 or 15 years ago that most highly qualified professionals came from select "Western" nations. However, these days, such people are far more likely to come from Arab nations or the Indian sub-continent. Plus, in your long post you left out one crucial criterion for Saudi citizenship: you must be a Muslim. Since that would rule out most of the white folks, doesn't that kind of spoil your theory?
BTW I think you're getting needlessly wound up and massively angry about the citizenship thing. So KSA doesn't want large numbers of menial workers who don't speak the language gaining citizenship? That may be unfair on one level, but I really don't think that any other country with such a huge number of low-skilled foreign workers would act much differently. In any case, like globalnomad, I have barely ever heard of a foreigner who wanted to settle here permanently, with the exception of those Arabs whose families have been here for generations.
There are very many injustices and indignities meted out to poor foreign workers here every day. But I don't think the fact that they are ineligible for Saudi citizenship is anything like the most serious of them. |
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QatarChic
Joined: 06 May 2005
Posts: 445
Location: Qatar
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Van Norden
Joined: 23 Oct 2004
Posts: 409
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| Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 7:12 am Post subject: |
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We're talking about people who have lived and worked here - legally - for many years. I think just about every western country does acknowledge the right of such workers to apply for citizenship. Even illegal migrants can be eligible. It's true, though, that the 'migrant worker/local population ratio' here is very different different to all the western countries and, in this sense, it is a bit unfair to single out Saudi.
Saudi is, however, entirely hypocritical in that they invite young singles and non-muslim (2 examples) migrant workers to this country yet demand that they don't mix with the opposite sex and don't practice their religion. They want their cake (aren't we so pure) and eat it (do our dirty work) too. |
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Cleopatra
Joined: 28 Jun 2003
Posts: 3657
Location: Tuamago Archipelago
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| Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 7:29 am Post subject: |
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| they invite young singles and non-muslim (2 examples) migrant workers to this country yet demand that they don't mix with the opposite sex and don't practice their religion |
Rather a strange interpretation of the situation.
Like every nation on earth, KSA demands that those who choose to live here abide by the laws of the land, however ridiculous those laws may appear to foreigners. I am sure that you, like all other visitors here, signed a form stating that you agreed to abide by the laws and customs of Saudi Arabia when you applied for your visa. If it bothered you all that much, couldn't you have looked for a more liberal country to 'invite' you?
I'm not religious myself, but I do of course believe that freedom of worship is a basic human right. However, to be honest I can't understand why a devout Christian, for example, would choose to come to KSA knowing that the laws of the land prohibit them to practice their faith. As for mixing with the opposite sex, I've not found this to be difficult outside of the workplace - I don't know what kind of a social life you have, but almost all of the gatherings I go to are mixed.
Mind you, don't tell anyone I told you that:
http://www.arabnews.com/?page=1§ion=0&article=99973&d=17&m=8&y=2007&pix=kingdom.jpg&category=Kingdom
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| (do our dirty work) |
You consider your job to be 'dirty work'? Your plight seems more profound by the day. |
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Van Norden
Joined: 23 Oct 2004
Posts: 409
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| Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 7:48 am Post subject: |
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Cleo, forget about me. I know that I'm doing well and I know that it's all because of the draconian laws of this country. I also know that I had a real choice to come here, unlike many (or most!)
BTW, that link is too long for the page. |
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Cleopatra
Joined: 28 Jun 2003
Posts: 3657
Location: Tuamago Archipelago
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| Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 7:51 am Post subject: |
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| BTW, that link is too long for the page. |
??? |
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007
Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 2684
Location: UK/Veteran of the Magic Kingdom
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| Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 9:36 am Post subject: |
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| globalnomad2 wrote: |
| Personally my dream is to retire in Riyadh, studying metaphysics and absorbing pearls of wisdom at the feet of 007. |
I do not think that your dream is true and from the bottom of your heart.
I think your 'hidden' dream is to retire in Honolulu, studying Mickey Mouse films and absorbing pearls of 'wisdom' and 'fantasy' at the feet and hand of Uncle Sam.
But, unfortunately, in all probability, your 'hidden' dream would not be achievable!
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| If it bothered you all that much, couldn't you have looked for a more liberal country to 'invite' you? |
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| Cleo, forget about me. I know that I'm doing well and I know that it's all because of the draconian laws of this country. I also know that I had a real choice to come here, unlike many (or most!) |
I do not think it was a matter of choice, 'invitation', human rights, or draconian laws.
I think, it was a matter of how much Clams he can suck and save in one year in the magic kingdom. |
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trapezius
Joined: 13 Aug 2006
Posts: 1670
Location: Land of Culture of Death & Destruction
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| Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 11:34 am Post subject: |
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| It may have been the case 10 or 15 years ago that most highly qualified professionals came from select "Western" nations. However, these days, such people are far more likely to come from Arab nations or the Indian sub-continent. |
I clearly remember that in the recent past someone talked of Arabs/Asians with Western citizenship as not really being citizens of the Western countries they have citizenship of. And now you are doing the same thing indirectly.
I never said caucasian or white or Westerner or anything of that sort. All I said is that expats with PhDs in this country most likely have NATIONALITY from US/UK/AU/CA. Yes, it is possible to be brown-skinned, to have been born in and raised in a brown-skinned country, but to have Western citizenship because of having travelled to a Western country for studies/work, or having immigrated under the points systems after education!
So far, all Arabs and Asians with PhDs I have met in this country had some Western nationality, and not just the common ones I listed. Even French, Irish, and Swiss. I doubt anybody with European, N. American, or Australasian citizenship would want Saudi citizenship, especially since having Saudi citizenship requires revocation of the current one.
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| So KSA doesn't want large numbers of menial workers who don't speak the language gaining citizenship? |
I never talked about menial workers in my post. I talked about doctors, engineers, teachers, businessmen, nurses, and technicians, i.e., those with just a Bachelor's or Master's at the most.
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| I have barely ever heard of a foreigner who wanted to settle here permanently, with the exception of those Arabs whose families have been here for generations. |
Not my problem that you don't mix with middle class professionals from Arab and Asian countries. Yes, I know, your job and status in this country precludes that, but that doesn't mean such people don't exist. I can point you to thousands upon thousands of Arab and Asian families who have been here for 20-40 years, and would like to have citizenship so they can retire here, as they have basically lost any connection to their homelands over the decades, and/or they want to retire here to have access to Makkah/Madinah. |
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Cleopatra
Joined: 28 Jun 2003
Posts: 3657
Location: Tuamago Archipelago
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| Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 11:54 am Post subject: |
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So what happened? You got bored with campaigning for 'oppressed' Saudi women and have now decided to take up the case of the desperate Asian professional?
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| I clearly remember that in the recent past someone talked of Arabs/Asians with Western citizenship as not really being citizens of the Western countries they have citizenship of. And now you are doing the same thing indirectly. |
Pure fantasy.
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| Yes, it is possible to be brown-skinned, to have been born in and raised in a brown-skinned country, but to have Western citizenship because of having travelled to a Western country for studies/work, or having immigrated under the points systems after education! |
Thanks for the lesson, but in most cases citizens of these countries are indeed white. Anyway, that has nothing to do with my point, which was that the majority of professionals in KSA do not come from "Western" nations.
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Not my problem that you don't mix with middle class professionals from Arab and Asian countries. Yes, I know, your job and status in this country precludes that, but that doesn't mean such people don't exist |
As noted, an internet fantasist. Many threads ago, you were busy telling me what social class of Saudi women I have dealt with, and now you are telling me what class of Asians people I do or do not socialise with! At the risk of sounded cliched, you really should get a life.
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| I can point you to thousands upon thousands of Arab and Asian families who have been here for 20-40 years, and would like to have citizenship so they can retire here, as they have basically lost any connection to their homelands over the decades, and/or they want to retire here to have access to Makkah/Madinah. |
I know many such families too, and while they do not have Saudi citizenship, and little prospect of getting it any time soon, many remain in KSA indefinately, having children and raising them here. Such people do indeed retire here, citizenship or no. Some of my students are Syrian or Jordanian nationals, but they - and in some cases their parents - have known no other home than KSA.
And while I agree that such people should at least have the possibility of citizenship, wasn't it their choice to 'lose all connection to their homelands', in the full knowledge that KSA was highly unlikely to grant them citizenship? |
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trapezius
Joined: 13 Aug 2006
Posts: 1670
Location: Land of Culture of Death & Destruction
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| Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 12:28 pm Post subject: |
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| So what happened? You got bored with campaigning for 'oppressed' Saudi women and have now decided to take up the case of the desperate Asian professional? |
Can't I have multiple "campaigns" going on? BTW, calling those Asian professionals who would like to retire here "desperate" really shows your true elitist colors. Those "desperate" Asian professionals told me to tell you that they apologize they are not as privileged as you are, and do not have the right skin color/nationality, that you obviously have.
BTW, why are you here? Why don't you go back to your country? Are you "desperate" for something which has made you come so far, to a country far less developed than yours? And what would that thing be?
I wish I could remember what thread it was. Somebody was going off about non-native speakers of English, but with Western citizenships, and was basically saying that they aren't citizens really. You chided him by saying if they have the citizenship they are citizens.
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| Anyway, that has nothing to do with my point, which was that the majority of professionals in KSA do not come from "Western" nations. |
Thanks for your "point", but do you just like to make random points? What does that have to do with I said? That was not your point, but a retort to me saying that most expats here with PhDs are Western citizens. You clearly took that to mean "native" Westerners, when in fact, I did not mention race or ethnicity at all, just citizenship.
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| you were busy telling me what social class of Saudi women I have dealt with |
Just like you love to tell people boastingly on here that they have not met Saudi women. How do you know that? Do you stalk male expat teachers to see if they talk to Saudi women or not?
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| and now you are telling me what class of Asians people I do or do not socialise with! |
Well if you have not yet come across (or EVEN heard of, as you said) an Arab/Asian professional who would like to retire here (aside from those whose families have been here for generations), chances are that you haven't met very many Arab/Asian [middle class to lower middle class] professionals outside of teaching. Or if you have, that's one thing you have obviously not talked with them about (not that you have to, but that also doesn't mean you can go around assuming that hardly anybody wants to retire here).
At the risk of sounding cliched, you should get a brain. And a "life" too, before you tell me to get one. I mean, you are gladly responding to everything here, so unless responding to posts on here is your life, you should get one too. And please tell me where I can get one.
I talk about middle class professionals wanting to retire here, you respond with SA understandably not wanting menial laborers to retire here. Yeah, I understand that too, but I never talked about menial workers. Again, that was your [random] "point", right?
I talk about highly skilled professionals most probably being Western citizens already, and you clearly interpret that as being natives, hence, you say they are more likely to be Arab or Subcontinent nationals these days.
Perhaps a few lessons in logic are in order.
Anyway, I have said all I wanted to say about this topic. I am just repeating myself here now. My point is that middle class professionals (NOT MENIAL LABORERS, CLEOPATRA) who have been here a certain number of years and have a certain minimum bank balance here, should be allowed to retire here and purchase an apartment/house in their own name.
Good bye!
P.S.
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| And while I agree that such people should at least have the possibility of citizenship, wasn't it their choice to 'lose all connection to their homelands', in the full knowledge that KSA was highly unlikely to grant them citizenship? |
Again, not everybody is as privileged as you are, and not everyone is born in the "right" country, or with the "right" skin color, as you obviously have. |
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Cleopatra
Joined: 28 Jun 2003
Posts: 3657
Location: Tuamago Archipelago
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| Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 1:23 pm Post subject: |
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Can't I have multiple "campaigns" going on? |
Given the amount of time you spend here, I can't see where you would find the time, much less the nervous energy.
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| BTW, calling those Asian professionals who would like to retire here "desperate" really shows your true elitist colors |
Oh well, we can't all be as humble as your good "some of my best friends are Asian professionals" self.
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| BTW, why are you here? |
Since you ask, because I like my job and the standard of living I can enjoy here. Why do you ask, BTW?
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| You chided him by saying if they have the citizenship they are citizens. |
That must have been one of my finer moments of logic, though the relevance to this thread, and the subject you have got your k******s in a fine twist over, is difficult to fathom.
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| That was not your point, but a retort to me saying that most expats here with PhDs are Western citizens. You clearly took that to mean "native" Westerners, when in fact, I did not mention race or ethnicity at all, just citizenship. |
For reasons which I really do find hard to understand, you seem to have got so excited and so terribly emotional over this thread that you are not reading straight. What I said was that most professionals here are not citizens of "Western" nations, whatever their ethnicity. You may not have found this to be the case, and that's fine, but as far as I'm concerned my point still stands.
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| Just like you love to tell people boastingly on here that they have not met Saudi women |
What 'telling people boastingly on here' is, I do not pretend to know. However, I have indeed remarked to many of our male posters that their remarks about Saudi women are ill-informed, being as most of them have met few if any Saudi women.
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| How do you know that? |
Oh, I dunno. Maybe the fact that KSA is a strictly segregated society where foreign men have almost zero contact with local women? You seem to have rather a memory for threads here, so you'll recall that in these discussions, most of the male posters (including yourself?) did indeed respond by admitting that they have had little or no contact with Saudi women.
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| please tell me where I can get one. |
A brain or a life?
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| I am just repeating myself here now. |
As Michael Moore might say: for once, we agree! |
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