Job Discussion Forums

[SeasonedVet]

I started this thread so as not to clog up the other thread where the OP wanted immersion in Japanese language.
I am interested in hearing some discussion on the following:

Is it easier to learn standard Japanese while living in the Kanto area where the standard "appears" to be more widely spoken?
Is it more difficult to learn standard Japanese where dialects are spoken eg in Osaka Kagoshima, Aomori?
If a person wants immersion in standard Japanese would it make a huge difference if the person immersed in an area like Kanto as opposed to an area like Kagoshima or Aomori?

[southofreality]

SeasonedVet asked:

"Is it easier to learn standard Japanese while living in the Kanto area where the standard "appears" to be more widely spoken?"
Not really. In the classroom, wherever you are, you'll study standard textbook Japanese. Your teacher may teach you some of the local dialect, but it won't be the focus of the class. Outside the classroom, most Japanese people in areas with strong dialects will speak standard Japanese with you just as they would any Japanese person clearly not from that area. Of course kids and older people tend to speak using mostly their local dialects.

"Is it more difficult to learn standard Japanese where dialects are spoken eg in Osaka Kagoshima, Aomori?"
It shouldn't be. The biggest factors are your motivation and exposure to the language. If you're constantly eavesdropping to pick up listening skills, you might have a difficult time in places where the local dialect is strong, but in everyday conversation most Japanese people will probably be willing to use standard Japanese when talking with you. Your good friends might expect you to pick up the local dialect and be able to understand and use it when you're with them, but for everyday business, you'll use the standard stuff most of the time.

"If a person wants immersion in standard Japanese would it make a huge difference if the person immersed in an area like Kanto as opposed to an area like Kagoshima or Aomori?"
No. If your goal is to be around standard Japanese as much as possible, come to Kanto. However, you can learn it quite well wherever you are. And you can spice it up by infusing some of the local dialect once in a while.

And, for fear of offending someone born and raised there, when in a place like Osaka, refer to the so-called standard Japanese as 'textbook' Japanese. To many people from Kansai, Japanese with the Kansai dialect is the 'standard' Japanese.

[SeasonedVet]

Some have been suggesting that Kanto be the area to go to to be immersed in the standard.
I understand the thinking, I understand that some people think that dialects like Osaka dialect and others might run interference with the immersion process. I have been living in Osaka and I also lived in another area of Japan. The dialects of both places never interferred with the way I picked up standard Japanese. (That's just me, so that's why I threw out the question in case others have had a different experience)
Actually after a number of years in Osaka I am finally beginning to pick up Osaka dialect. I could always understand it but I never spoke it. It was never a hindrance to me learning the standard.

Actually I asked a Japanese friend of mine which area in Japan would be best if the person wanted to be immersed in "standard Japanese"
And guess what? The answer was NOT the Kanto area.
It was a very different place far away from kanto.-

[mspxlation]

Was it Hokkaido?

Standard Japanese is based on the upper-class dialect of Tokyo. Everyone who has been to school can speak it, sometimes with an accent, and people easily switch back and forth between standard Japanese (hyoujungo) and their dialect.

Places like Nagasaki and Aomori have real distincitve local dialects, but they never use them with non-locals.

Kansai (Kyoto-Osaka-Kobe) is different. Many people there have a strong sense of regional pride and speak their local dialect to everyone. Still, they do understand hyoujungo, and if you were really struggling, I'm sure they'd use it with you.

[SeasonedVet]

mspxlation:

[NorthofAmerica]

Man, I lived here for about 8 months before I learned what "cho" means. I always learned "mecha" from people and "totemo" from books. Some other examples, I learned "wakarahen" instead of "wakarunai" and I don't even know what the standard version of "nandianen" is. When I read kanto slang in manga I am particularly confused.

But usually you learn what is standard and what is local just through a combination of study and play. Still, sometimes it's funny to learn something in a book and realize you've been using a different word the whole time. I met people from Tokyo when I was in Seoul and they thought it was bizarre that I used some kansai ben with them. At the time I really didn't know better. I also accidentally used "okini" in Hiroshima this weekend and they looked at me like I was an alien.

p.s. I never write these words, especially in romaji so hopefully you know what I am talking about.

[SeasonedVet]

I am also considering this from the point of view of people going to English speaking countries to study/learn English.

Would they be better advised to avoid certain areas because there is a dialect?
Should they avoid London because of the various dialects there?
There are numerous dialects in England? Would there be a list of places recommending where to study and where not to?
Should they avoid Philadelphia in North America because of the dialect there and stick more to the Northwest?
Would these affect their immersion

[markle]

[southofreality]

Eventually, most foreign language learners will overcome whatever difficulties they have in regions with strong local dialects. If they're college students, they'll likely be around a diverse group of people most of the time, so the local dialect might not be as influential. If they spend a long period of time (1 year or more) isolated in a region with a strong local dialect, they may end up with with a few challenges to overcome when they do end up going to a different region. Who knows, really?

It's hard to believe that the region where they were to study would be the most influential factor in determining how well they picked up the standard form of the language.

[SeasonedVet]

One other angle I am considering this situation from:
It is often the case that when a dialect of a language is spoken in a country that that dialect and by association the speakers of that dialect are seen as inferior to the superstrate or the standard thereby implying that the standard is superior and by extension the speakers thereof.

How often in the past have dialects been referred to as a "corruption" of the standard, especially in the case of English. We have also seen words like "broken" to refer to the level of a speaker's ability to produce the L2. For example " he spoke in broken English" or " I did my best to explain but I couldn't do much with my broken Japanese and all"
These words/expressions are now seen as inapropriate and in some cases discriminatory.
You linguistics majors will probably be familiar with the case of Suriname and its dialect.

Moreover some speakers of some dialects also feel inferior because they speak a brand of language that "apparently" is "inferior" to the standard.
But dialects exist for a reason. An evil group of fairies didn't set about to create dialects to "corrupt" languages. Therefore when I noticed people suggesting to others on this site to "avoid" certain areas if you want to study the standard by immersion I started thinking.
Of course it seems reasonable; you want to to study and be immersed in the standards then go where the standard is spoken. I can understand that, it's clear, that's fine.
Arguably, if the dialect of a particular area is so far from the standard that it looks, sounds or reads like a different language then that "might' be a case for not attempting to immerse in that area. As far as Japan is concerned I am sure that 100% of the people of any given area where dialects are spoken do not speak the dialect 100% of the time.

Now let me deal with the case of Osaka as it was included in the list of places to "avoid" if you want to immerse in the standard.
Osaka dialect is Not spoken 100% of the time by 100% of the people.
Osaka dialect is not so far removed from the standard as to be incomprehensible. (however there are different types of Osaka dialect, some further removed from the standard. And believe it or not there is actually a polite form of Osaka dialect.)
There are areas where the dialects are more likely to be heard and there are areas where they are less likely to be heard.
In Osaka (just like anywhere else in Japan) business is done in the standard, friends speak in the dialect and others mixed.
Osaka dialect is seen by some as rough ( but remember there are different types) and by others as emotional, friendly, warm and welcoming.
The standard is seen by some as pure, clean, fresh and polite and by others as frozen, boring, dull and unemotional.
If you put down a language you might put down a people and if you put down a dialect you'll likely be doing the same.

[markle]

Oh boy 'Vet my head hurts after going through that post, as my senior English teacher used to say "be concise, and stop wordw anking"

Anyhow, one point I would raise is that a reason people would suggest avoiding learning by immersion in places that have a strong local dialect (for any language) is that less adept students will often be unable to distinguish what is local and what is standard, and may often inadvertently use local dialect inappropriately. I know I've done this myself at times and have seen and heard it many times also.

Really I think it's drawing a rather long bow to suggest that advising people to avoid a certain place because of the local dialect is some kind of oppression of the people from there.

[Mark]

I think it's undeniable that the local language variant will affect how you learn, particularly if you're trying to learn a standardised language in an area where the local variant is quite different than the standardised form. This is true for most languages. English is in a bit of a unique position as we don't really have an officially standardised language that everyone is expected to learn and use.

Anyway, as far as Japan goes, it doesn't seem to be much of a problem as long as you live in a city of reasonable size (say, prefectural capitals). If you live in a little town out in the backwoods of Aomori, yeah, you may have problems.

If anyone's really worried about it, they can stick to Kanto or Hokkaido.