Job Discussion Forums

[Leon Purvis]

Okay, how about "I work with someone, and I saw his visa and it was a single entry F visa. My school also hired someone who had been here for three years on an F visa. She has not gone home. The other DID return to the states, paid no fine, and and THEN returned today on an F visa WHICH I SAW WITH MY OWN EYES."

Anecdotal information IS irritating to some, especially when all that a poster EVER posts. I don't like it either. When I think of it, though, all that anyone can offer on this board is anecdotal information, unless he can cite a verified, credible study based upon empirical evidence that all F visa-bearing FTs have been thrown out of the country or that no F visas have ever been issued for the purposes of employment.

To the original OP: It is true what the others are saying. Legally, you may NOT work on an F visa and collect a pay check. There ARE some who are doing it, however, and considering the fact that their pay comes through the provincial government, the province must know about it and tacitly approve of it, right? If you are in a populous city such as Shanghai, the issuance if an F visa does seem shady, given the fact that Shanghai is a popular destination for qualified FTs. If, suppose, one is in a cowtown in a poorer province such as Jiangxi, one is more likely to get a job with an F visa if it cannot procure a letter of invitation for its applicant.

If one works in other than an affluent city and province that attracts few foreign teachers, it is quite possible that one may be allowed to stay on an F visa. Such a practice may be contrary to the law but remain unenforced.

We've got people among us who are working on bogus credentials and no credentials whatsoever. Does that surprise anyone? Probably not. Does it P*ss anyone off? It p*sses me off when I consider the fact that I WORKED for my credentials and the illegals arrive believing that they are my peers.

Do I recommend that people engage in employment in other than a Z visa?

Nope. I'd like to see them all issued a Z visa if they qualify for one.

So come on, you guys. Those of you who have been here for any length of time know that some pretty crazy things happen in China, and that what is law in one province may be a mere guideline in another. Not long ago, there was a thread about how authorities seem to look the other way when
when confronted with evidence of bureaucratic crime.

I am not trying to start a brawl here. I am merely reminding the longtimers whose OWN sage advice has been qualified with the words "Oh, well, this is China. Things change from day to day, and from province to province."

Think about this for awhile before you flame me.

[boubou]

[boubou]

Leon, most of the publicly funded schools that employ a teacher on a F visa get the money not from the government but by making the kids pay extra for the foreigners. The school I was teaching at before I got arrested didn't even have a license to employ foreigners, I learned only later that the money they got was because the kids had to pass an exam to be admitted in a public school and paid extra to have foreign teachers, which is completely out of reason if you ask me. I know it changes from day to day and from province to province, and if you're really asking for proof of my arrest, I'll be glad to fax you my police report. (police wont let me photocopies in case I get arrested by customs, they are "protecting me" I can only send an overseas fax to my father if I want a copy) They are, of course not translated. I was only allowed a translator to verbally translate the written reports. I didn't mean to fire at you, I just want you to stop saying that it's possible to do this without problems at the long term. In the area I was working, foreigners get deported every year for illegal working papers, and with the new deputy FAO in the county, I can only imagine it getting worst.

[Leon Purvis]

No, I didn't say that one could do it without problems. Anything which is contrary to the written law is likely to draw trouble upon scrutiny.

I don't doubt that you were arrested. I am not unsympathetic to the headache you experienced, either. I myself nearly followed the advice of a recruiter until I did my homework and found out what was actually required to work in China. This was when the Washington, DC office required my degrees and health examination to be authenticated by local U.S. jurisdictions as well as Federal jurisdiction (State Dept.) as well as authentication by the Chinese consulate. The recruiter had told me, "Don't worry, we can change your L to a Z-- no problem."

Yeah right. I can only imagine what would have happened to me had i not done my homework.

My point was to underscore the fact that there ARE folks in China who really ARE working on F visas in PUBLIC UNIVERSITIES who are not scrutinized by the authorities. The FAO is complicit in these affairs. I did not intend to encourage anyone to even attempt to work on anything except a Z visa.

My advice is to make no moves until you have your Beijing ducks in a row, and have spoken to someone who is knowledgeable about procedure and enforcement in your intended area of work and residence. ALWAYS apply for the Z visa. That will require the letter of invitation (or whatever the certificate is called now-- I got a letter and a yellow FEC) to be filed with the consulate. Once you have the Z visa nobody can pull the rug out from under you--- not completely, anyway.

I didn't think that you were firing at me, though it would be understandable since I did not make my point clear.

[kev7161]

I'm sure that these language mills would love to have all their FTs graduated with a teaching degree or a language degree of some sort but the reality is that probably MANY "teachers" that come to China have a Fine Arts degree or something instead. I'm not saying having a degree in education makes you a better teacher (let's not get into THAT debate again!) . . . but it seems the main talking point for the Chinese government is EXPERIENCE. Sure, you could have a Bachelor's degree in Rocket Science and could put together a rocket in your sleep, but can you teach a classroom full of students how to do it, hmmm? Have you done it before?

But the language mills need warm, white-faced bodies so those mommies and daddies will pay the money for their little ones to go there. Chinese govt. making new regulations to hopefully ensure better quality teachers? Fine, just like in everything else, we (the language school) will skirt around that and do a little white-lying ("sure, sure, we'll get you that working visa - - just come on your little tourist visa first and we'll take care of it later - - trust us!") and the officials in charge are much too overworked and underpaid anyway to do too much about it.

So, yes, some FTs can get away with working on an F-visa . . . for awhile anyway. But it's a roll of the dice on whether or not you'll get caught. If you're willing to take the gamble, well, good luck then!

[tw]

I think it's just plain easy to see that, like converting the L visa to a RPF and FEC, that teaching with a F visa can be either tolerated or forbidden -- all depending on where you work and whether the employer has any guanxi.

[Anda]

It's all a supply and demand thing. Back in 1990 when I started in Korea it was a real game with immigration and actually quite fun to play. I use to go in and out on a tourist visa every few months. I did that for a year and a half. After that I went back to Oz and put myself through Uni.

In those days if you showed up at the airport in Taipei without money for the departure tax on a tourist visa you would be told to go back and teach some English until you had the money.

If you play the game and act like a scared silly dumb foreigner and say how you love the country and people and didn�t think things would happen, then you will most likely get let off.

I�ve gone the lot including the jail thing in Japan over having no visa. How did I come to China to work? On a tourist visa! Have I ever paid a fine? No!

Use your head and make the best out of what is offered. Those that don�t take any risks usually stay in their home countries in some boring job and dream. So what if things go wrong! Do you think turning up with all the right papers insures no problems? Visa is just one of the risks of this game, which is life.

I have seen government EPIK teachers in South Korea turn up, do the induction program of two weeks that is unpaid. Arrive at the school that they have been sent to and say "Oh S--T" and disappear with in 24 hours, back to their home countries.

If you don�t like you situation, then find a better situation! If you have a visa that doesn�t allow you to work then it is simple to get a job that does and do the Hong Kong visa run. What�s the problem?

[Leon Purvis]

My students don't pay extra for having a class with an FT. It is a requirement and part of the regular tuition in my public university.

[tw]

[vikuk]

[Anda]

From what I'm hearing an awful lot want you here to start on a tourist visa. If you arrive on a tourist visa Vikuk then if you are unlucky with the job that you have arrived for then you can move straight on or hold off and start to apply everywhere for work on the Net. In the mean time you have somewhere to live.

Coming over with a work visa but landing in some awful setup is more of a problem then the above. You are then stuck with all the traps written into the contract for those who brake contract.

You can get on Dave's and ask questions but have someone might move in on the job offer like what happened to TW.

Also if you spend too long asking question etc then the employer will take someone else on.

The trouble with your advise Vikuk is that most applying for / wanting a job here in China will not have been outside their home country. Turning up on the spot and looking for work on one's own in China would probally come as quite a shock. Your big cities here are full of pick pockets for a start. If the new kid on the block has no work history then that is another problem as they will probally get caught having to work for an instutite anyway. Having no work history will probally result in the instutite wanting the Newbie to work for a month on test. So is life!

[vikuk]

[Sonnet]

Anyone who works under a full-time for a school which can't supply them with a Z-Visa before arrival is, quite frankly, asking for trouble.

It won't always catch up with you, but it will sometimes. I made such a mistake, once, and suffered heavily for it. Would never do so again, in any country. If a school can't procure all of your working paperwork, then they're odds-on a dodgy place. However good the location, however good the promised money, nothing's worth risking your legal status in a country for. Right?

[Anda]

Some things are strange here but! My first job here I started to work on a tourist visa but the school straight away gave the local police details that I was there with them. My second place of work I straight away told my school that they have to register me with the local police however they were slow and let my visa run out for 5 weeks. Result my school was asked to pay a 5,000 RMB fine but this was reduced to I think 2,000. Still here and happy and get on well with everyone.

These days I try to stick to working in government positions for a number of reasons. However most of the big chain institutes are well connected with, we will say the law. I am used to doing things the Asian way and it has worked for me for 17 years. To do things the Asian way however takes a bit of skill and requires one mostly to keep quite and let the locals do their thing. Be a smart ass and mouth off and you will be in deep water so fast you will wonder what happened.

The Japan thing; I was doing a visa run from Korea where I was working on a tourist visa for an institute that had many branches. I had taken a ferry to Japan to get another tourist visa but on a return ticket, not a transit ticket so I needed a visa in those days. Were I worked in Korea being Yosu I was it in the way of foreigners at the time and this was my first visa run. Anyway when the ferry arrived in Japan and immigration looked at my passport, they didn't know how to handle me so they stuck me in lock up so to speak back on the ferry in a first class cabin with food and drinks. By the end of the day I had my tourist visa for Korea and was on my way back after things were done Asian style. On arrival I was met by Korean immigration who had been told everything. Anyway after a bit of yacking I was let go and I went back to my institute after admitting I was teaching and things were sorted out the Asian way once again. The next time I did the proper thing and applied for a visa for Japan but I was on record as being some what crazy so they stamped my passport with a multiple entry visa for I year. I did another 5 visa runs from Korea after that before going home to Australia to get a Uni degree.

Life is a game, you have to take some risks now and again.

[vikuk]