Job Discussion Forums

[007]

[scot47]

I have to agree with 007. And I must say that most of my Saudi students are nice, well-behaved and focussed on doing something positive.

[Cleopatra]

[trapezius]

At the higher ed level, yes, even my Saudi students are well-behaved and polite.

Focused on doing something positive? Very few of them. The vast majority have no desire to study or to work hard. And this is also quite evident in the job market with constant stories of young Saudi graduates (both male and female) being fired from their jobs left and right because either they don't know anything, or they are very lazy and come an hour late, leave an hour early, and take constant tea breaks. (and get nothing done)

Anybody with young Saudi colleagues in middle to low level positions would tell you that.

And about the behaviour, as I said, in college, it is fine, but if you go to school level, their behaviour is horrendous, from personal experience, and from the experience of many friends at many public, private, and international schools.

[Cleopatra]

[trapezius]

[Cleopatra]

Yes, it's true that Saudi students do cheat and plagiarise to a very high degree. And it is true that this is annoying, and is indeed ethically wrong. It's also true that their society must at some level condone this behaviour, or it would not happen to the degree that it does.

That's the bad side. However, I have also found, in my years of working with Saudi students, that while they can definitely be devious and sneaky, they can also be generous, hospitable, compassionate, polite and kind-hearted to a degree I have not often found elsewhere. I certainly don't believe that 'ethics' is a 'foreign concept' to the majority of Saudi students, simply that the way in which classroom 'ethics' is interpreted is not neccessarily the same in Riyadh as it is in Kansas. If you fail to understand that, then that is your limitation.

For all their faults - and they are many - I still prefer working with Saudi students than with students from the many other parts of the world I have also worked in. I certainly do not believe my students need lessons in morality or human decency from resentful foreign teachers.

[007]

[spiral78]

Ok, I taught Saudi gentlemen for 10 weeks in Canada last year. I realize my experience is severely limited in contrast to those of you who post here regularly.

But, in defense of 'cheating,' there's quite a lot of SLA research literature (Hofsteed, for example) recognizing the fact that Middle Eastern societies are 'group-centred,' as opposed to holding the individual as ultimately responsible. It's kind of seeing the world in only black and white to say that helping a fellow student is WRONG. In Western cultures, where individual responsibility is the norm, it IS wrong. But in cultures where the group is more important than any individual member, it's kinda grey.

I'll go hunt for some references (like Hofsteede) if you want...

Not to say that I turned a blind eye to any cheating when I was working with the guys last summer. Not at all - but I had to incorporate a strong element of explaining why, in this particular context, it was actually not acceptable to help each other...

It's not an issue of what's right or wrong in general, it's a question of what's acceptable or not in a particular context. If you're taking a western-style test for a western-style institution, helping each other is not acceptable. In other contexts, helping is laudable.

[Cleopatra]

[zaylahis]

How about given open book exams or using formats/ methods which prevent cheating? Like crossword puzzles? Oral exams? Would this help to counter cheating? I have used open book exams for subjects other than ESL.

[Cleopatra]

Having 'open book' exams wouldn't get round the problem of students trying to copy from one another. This requires constant vigilance from those administering the exam - I remember in one place I worked we had to have at least two versions of each exam, and work out some ridiculously complex seating arrangement to minimise the chances of students cheating.

As I've said, I think the whole approach is flawed. It shouldn't be the job of teachers to go to so much trouble to prevent students cheating. I really do think that teachers should only be obliged to take reasonable precautions - having students sit far apart, bring nothing whatsoever into the exam hall, the usual stuff. Then, if students do cheat, be ruthless in your treatment: make them repeat the entire year if necessary.

However, I don't' think this approach would ever be accepted in KSA. Here the attitude seems to be that it is the duty of the more responsible party to try to prevent misdemeanours on the part of the junior party. Again, we come back to the concept of personal responsibility, or lack thereof. Also, trying to impose tough punishments on students rarely works, particularly in private institutions. When you read policy booklets for most colleges, the rules often sound quite draconian, but in practice they are almost never enforced to the full degree.

[trapezius]

[dmb]

I think it is funny when students try to copy the dumb *kid in the class. I was often tempted to let them but knew that it would only come back at me.


"Why have all your students failed?"


"They copied the crap student"

Doesn't work, does it


* I know it is non pc to say this but you all get what I mean

[Cleopatra]