Job Discussion Forums

[lostinasia]

As I've scanned the forums and seen questions about things like overstaying visas, working on incorrect visas, and others, it makes me wonder:

Do you really believe it's acceptable to violate the laws of one country - in this case China and should receive no real punishment whatsoever, but of course you know you would panic and steer clear of committing any crime in your own country -- the common panic occurring when you see those flashing red lights in your rear view mirror.

For example of course, something that, in the forum, appears to be so benign as to schedule a trip in country after a visa has expired - when you knew it was expired. Or, working on an improper visa.

The fact is, these acts are crimes - they violate the law of the host country.

How many people would thus willingly and knowingly violate any law in their own country - especially knowing that there is a solid chance of imprisonment of some sort.

Why is it okay - as it often appears to be based on some "explanations" of situations?

[upchuckles]

Like the approach to this question!

[clark.w.griswald]

My short answer is that I believe in respecting the laws of the country that I choose to live in, and if I didn't respect those laws then I would have no right to complain about the failure of others to respect those laws.

Having said that I can see why some foreigners do illegal things here that they would never do back home, and the Chinese are partly to blame for this in my opinion as they kind of leave the door open to these types of abuses.

I think that most of us come from societies where laws are enforced and administered fairly and justly - on the whole. Here in China we all see laws being ignored on a daily basis in full view of those who are charged with enforcing the law. It is easy to think that if the laws are not important enough to those individuals to consider enforcing then we shouldn't worry about them either.

At the end of the day though the law is the law and if you break it knowingly or unknowingly then you personally could be held responsible and face the consequences.

[kungfucowboy83]

i say know the law, know the punishment and the likely hood of gettng caught and punished If you feel the risk is acceptable break the law, if you don't follow the law. but never ever bitch about being punished for reaking a law you choose to break.

case in point, i used to work unarmed security at night sometimes in places where police response time was very slow and it was a bad part of town. so i always stayed in my car and had a pistol in the center console just in case someone attacked me. if caught this could have gotten me about 1 month in jail and a $1000 fine (probaly less since i had no record), an would have gotten me fired. i choose to break the law the risk was worth it to me.

in my city in china, it s pretty safe i take basic precautions at night (walk in well lit areas pay attenion, ect.) the crimials (mostly) don't have guns(nor do the cops) i'm twice the size of most theives, and possesion of a firearm can get you 3 years in a chinese prison, so i choose not to break the law, it's not worth the risk to me.

and remember if you choose to break the law all results are your own fault not your mommy's not the country's, yours.

[william wallace]

Lost in China- hey man, that wasn't a put down...maybe I worded it poorly?
Cheers
Being clear :YEAH, respect the laws as best as your conscience allows.

[jeffinflorida]

I once had a "physical" confrontation with 8 chinese cops at Fuyong. I was fined 400 rmb on the spot for "defacing" the cops.

yes I was physical with them and they with me.

In the USA I would have gotten a year in jail probably...

In my own words I got off easy - $50 usd for a fight with 8 cops and no arrest!

But i learned my lesson and know the limits..

[Brian Caulfield]

The main law that we break is working in places that we shouldn't be working in . Now the Chinese always tell me it is OK . I tell them I am different . I am not Chinese when I break a law people see me they are watching me anyway . What is the point? If you are honest and law abiding you never have to look over your shoulder .

[tw]

Better stop going into any massage parlours or hair salons that don't cut hair if all of you are law-abiding laowais here.

[lostinasia]

That's a good example - fact is, prostitution remains illegal

Then again, it's one of those laws that's ignored - so it must be okay then...

[Leon Purvis]

I am unsure that it is a good reason to ignore the law because the authorities seem to look the other way. I believe that the Chinese police and others in charge of law enforcement take the broad view of things: a long cultural history, an increasingly mobile population, a LARGE population that (for the most part) are law-abiding people who also take the broad view of life.

I do believe that Chinese view some laws as mere suggestions or requests. They can negotiate the laws, and the authorities can negotiate petty violations. This does NOT, however make admissible flagrant , knowing violations by foreigners. This is not our society, and they are not our people. We are guests, and despite whatever the host's family is doing, we must follow the house rules.

My own observation is that there are laowai who cannot even follow the rules of their home country, much less the rules of their hosts. There will always be people who consider themselves exceptions to law.

[Cognition]

And what about co-habitation between a foreign male and a Chinese girl? According to the letter of the law that is still illegal and is actually instantly classified as prostitution and both parties can be locked up for it. Yet everywhere I go I see and meet western guys shacked up with local gals .....

[lostinasia]

Actually the cohabitation law has been overturned in many locations. Jiangsu province , for example, has canceled the ban on non-marital cohabitation (June 2003). Cohabitation is in fact not illegal in many locations as is commonly thought, but remains the jurisdiction of the provincial/regional governments.

From Urban China's new wave of platonic cohabitation in the March 2003 issue of China Daily...

[jeffinflorida]

[Gregor]

I think the question quite ignores the fact that we DO commit crimes in our own countries. Unless y'all are a bunch of saints and if you say that I don't believe you.

IS breaking the law such a bad thing, always?

Yeah, it's a good idea to comply whenever reasonable. Not even possible; but reasonable. But I'm not going to let the simple fact that something is law - especially if there's very little chance that I'll get caught for breaking it - completely disrupt my life. I'll work illegally while waiting for the work permit to come through. Sure, no worries.
I worked on a business visa in Vietnam because there was just so much red tape. Who cares?
In the US I had to forge a birth certificate to get my drivers license because though I had an original with A stamp, it wasn't THE stamp that the DMV wanted. My brother had the correct stamp so I forged my own birth certificate from that. This was in my own country and I feel not the least amount of guilt for having done that. I'm me. I was born. I have a passport to prove it. They wanted that AND a birth certificate. OK, so I provided one. As long as the law is reasonable, fine. When it gets in the way of daily life, it's time to sort of dance around it a bit. What harm? Am I really admitting to high crimes against the state? Am I guilty of treason for my disrespect of the laws of the land? Seriously??

If so, OK, fine. I wouldn't want to hang around or be friends with anyone so staid and goody-goody as to be in full, 100% compliance with all laws. Hell, I've never even MET anyone like that. Don't tell me how perfect y'all are, here OR in your home countries. You're lying if you do.

I mean, honestly.

[vikuk]

Gregor what are you trying to tell us - commit a crime if you find it to be the reasonable option. And I thought the good ol' days of 68 were dead and gone - hey gregor hand me another Molotov c0cktail
Hey,I'm also interested, in how you and your bro decide what are and what aint reasonable laws - and does the legal system agree with you??????????
Remember folk - when in trouble with the cops in China (or indeed anywhere) - pleading the gregor amendment may not be your best defence. So with this in mind, I'm looking forward to Gregors next post - how to get away with committing a crime!!!!
By the way I aint no saint - but on this type of subject I would think very carefully before publicly telling folk that its OK to break a law (especially in a foreign country) - on some vague notion of what could be assumed to be reasonable. After all some moron � with not such a socially acceptable version of the concept of reasonable (both with regard to moral and risk of being caught factors) - might actually take this as sound advice and get themselves or even some other folk into a spot of trouble (at the very least Gregor should realise that counterfeittng a document in states wouldn't get him a deportation order - but in China the stakes are potentially a bit higher) - no we wouldn't want that would we.