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| How low would someone other than yourself work for FT per mo. |
| 5000 RMB |
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18% |
[ 8 ] |
| 4000 RMB |
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16% |
[ 7 ] |
| 3000 RMB |
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39% |
[ 17 ] |
| 2000 RMB |
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25% |
[ 11 ] |
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| Total Votes : 43 |
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arioch36
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 3589
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 Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 12:58 pm Post subject: |
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| The point about public schools related to the comment that students can't easily simply go somewhere else if they have a problem with charging higher fees - whereas if we talked about language mills, they would find it easier to vote with their feet if fees were increased to accommodate for a foreign teacher. |
i would have to strongly disagree. First, in my experience, few students at the non-public schools chose to be there. The older students who chose to be there, I have found, are quite willing to pay extra money for a class taught a good teacher, Chinese, but especially laowai.
And of course to parents, they pay obscene amounts of money without knowing at all the ability of teachers.
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| they would find it easier to vote with their feet if fees were increased to accommodate for a foreign teacher. |
If you have taught here for years?? you would agree that the opposite is true. They are always hounding laowai to come teach at the language mills. Was it ROCK that was talking about being approached at the bustop?
Taught at two IELTS/ Two year prepare abroad schools. Both charged huge amounts because they had laowai teachers. (one school was good, the other sucked, but the parents didn't seem to care)The kindy schools that charge top buck must have McLaowais. The parents vote... we want a laowai and will pay more money. No McLaowai, no money honey!
At the universty and three year level schools, there is likewise pressure on the administration. Yes, the students can't just leave, the school legally can keep them from going to another school. But students at colleges revolt, get upset, etc. Administration worries about kepping them happy, and gives promises, often unkept of obtaining McLaowai for them.
Are you speaking personal experince?
The problem to me is that they simply often don't care enough whether the foreigner is a true educator, or a Mc Laowai. But they often don't care if the Chinese teacher is doing a good job or not, just like with Britain, them not caring if the substitute teacher is doing a good job or not. Adapting to the Chinese system is as important as teaching a good class, understandable to some point. |
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arioch36
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 3589
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| Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 1:12 pm Post subject: |
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| The point about public schools related to the comment that students can't easily simply go somewhere else if they have a problem with charging higher fees |
Are you talking College, High School, Middle school, Primary school, or the current craze at the uni's "the International College" which charge huge fees ( five times the normal fee at my school). Having laowai is a key part to charging more, so the "international department" at my school, al majors get a laoiwai 4 hours a week at least, while the "regular college may not ahve a laowai at all, or just two hours a week |
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arioch36
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 3589
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| Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 1:26 pm Post subject: |
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To expect Chinese schools to appreciate BAs and MAs in Education is simply premature.
- So why does such a huge number of Chinese youth spend so much effort on working on getting their BA�s or MA�s??? |
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| Having said that, there is a contradiction. Schools will generally emphasise the qualifications of an FT with a B/M Ed., believing that it will enhance credibility and reputation |
Most schools I know usually are looking for any laowai that will come, teach, accept any conditions, and not complain. Which is why you find so many Filpinos and non-native African teachers teaching here. They will accept conditions that UK, US teachers wouldn't.
That said, I would say that the Chinese greatly appreciate qualfied laowai teachers. Unfortunately, these two conditions are opposed, and the person trying to resolve this is often a brand new college grad working her first job in the FAO office. So what is easier for them? A teacher who doesn't speak up about worhtless textbooks, etc.
Qualfied laowai teachers with higher degrees are sometimes too arrogant and demanding, expecting the system to change for them, instead of adapting to the system. How many times now have I seen a first year laowai with experience back home go to the Dean's office and tell the Dean for two hours all the things that he is doing wrong, all in the teacher's first month of teaching. So the Dean smiles politely, thanks the teacher for wasting two hours of his time (the Dean knows!), then yells at the recent grad working in the FAO office ... why did you find such a troublesome teacher. Chinese who actually work spend a lot more time on the job then we do. Theothers just play computer games and cann not be bothered
A MA or PHd from a Chinese school (speaking more of the social sciences) is a joke, and all Chinese teachers know this. They hate it. But the system says to be a higher college the school must have a certain percentage of MA, Phd. Many of these teachers don'e actually do any teaching |
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arioch36
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 3589
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| Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 1:31 pm Post subject: |
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| My beef is under the current system, no real incentive exist for those with education backgrounds and upper-level certifications. I would not call a 300 RMB a month extra in pay as a real incentive |
Upward mobility is my big beef. My current school does the Chinese method ... 200 RMB per month raise every two years. But even if I stay 20 years, I am still just a laowai.
A Chinese Phd could pull down twice or trhice the salary as a Chinese with BA, but usally the same pay with laowai. I do know a few colleges that will look for an experienced teacher with MA and pay slightly more, but let them also be involved in the planning |
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arioch36
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 3589
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| Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 1:42 pm Post subject: |
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| I had assumed it was not so common in China to receive degrees in education per se. I taught a class of math majors, for instance, and I am pretty much sure they were training to be teachers, yet almost all (if not all) of their classes were subject-based (i.e. they were learning maths, not how to transmit their knowledge). |
In every province there are many teaching colleges ie. the purpose is that these students are to become teachers. Whether their curriculum meets your approval is another question entirely.
I believe Anda currently works at such a school.
Of course , my perception is that if you are a good high school student, your parent would never let you go to a teacher college becuase you won't be able to get rich. Oh, sometimes they are called "normal" college |
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Shan-Shan
Joined: 28 Aug 2003
Posts: 1074
Location: electric pastures
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| Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 1:54 pm Post subject: |
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Was it ROCK that was talking about being approached at the bustop?
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I was approached recently, even given a crisp, sharp name card to help me remember the zookeeper's name.
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| A MA or PHd from a Chinese school (speaking more of the social sciences) is a joke |
Sure is, which explains why today, while peeking in the window of a Chinese teacher's English class, I noticed the following sentence on the front board --
"China is engaging in talks with American about trade"
and
"We remembering how the last talks went, and so must prepare for this round"
Sure, they might have been intentional, given to the 40 students to analyze and correct. Somehow, though, I believe that they are just a symptom of Chinese-taught English. |
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arioch36
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 3589
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| Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 2:08 pm Post subject: |
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The mosy important skill for the Chinese Phd or MA is the ability to plagarize anothers work, translate it into Chinese, and have a Laoai attempt to translate your poor english translation into proper english.
Facetious but true, and they all know it. The system of I won't tell if you won't tell.
Just helped a friend do this. She was given highest marks, and asked to present ... no original work |
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Shan-Shan
Joined: 28 Aug 2003
Posts: 1074
Location: electric pastures
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| Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 2:32 pm Post subject: |
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After doing a presentation about types of motivation involved in language learning and suggestions on how to nurture/encourage motivation in the English classroom, three different professors asked for my notes as well as the power point slides used throughout the short talk. Apparently, they couldn't be bothered to record their own impressions/make their own notes during my rather amateurish lecture.
Needless to say, I ate my notes right their in front of them. The professors then asked again about the power point slides. |
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arioch36
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 3589
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| Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 2:38 pm Post subject: |
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Sadly, most people will think you are just being facetious (my word of the day, to fight against the ten words I forget every day) |
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Katja84
Joined: 06 May 2007
Posts: 165
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| Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 8:38 pm Post subject: |
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| sheeba wrote: |
| IMHO and this might sound a bit far out but I think eventually people will twig that this whole artificial University classroom teaching of 40 + is a big waste of money. Emphasis will be on strategies to learn foreign langguage and the teacher's role will begin to disappear- not just in China but other countries too. The University jobs will be fewer in China only catering for smaller groups of Majors and taught by teachers that are qualified to do so. The pay will increase for such teachers but jobs will be scarce. |
I agree that class sizes are likely to decrease and more emphasis will be based on processes of learning and not just memorizing whatever the teacher says, but wouldn't this increase the demand for (now more qualified) teachers? I find it unlikely that only small groups of majors will be taught English - regardless of your subject, if you want to reach high you need to speak English (it takes time for research to be translated, and much of it never is), and with university education improving in general more people will begin to reach higher. Likewise, I'm not sure why you believe the teacher's role will begin to disappear - with smaller classes and different conceptions of learning, I would say it is more likely to increase - the teacher cannot just read from notes but will need to interact more with the students and will need to spend more time on planning in order to ensure that students engage in active learning. And of course this is off the topic but we're already off the topic and your point is interesting...
arioch36: You've quoted me several times but since I can't see how your points relate to mine, I can't answer you. In fact I am wondering if you've read my posts at all? An example:
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| If you have taught here for years?? you would agree that the opposite is true. They are always hounding laowai to come teach at the language mills. Was it ROCK that was talking about being approached at the bustop? |
Have I ever said anything different? Feel free to quote me. What I have been trying to argue is that STUDENTS do not want to pay HIGHER fees in order to have QUALIFIED laowais (defined as person with a BA/MA in EDUCATION with TESOL).
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| In every province there are many teaching colleges ie. the purpose is that these students are to become teachers. Whether their curriculum meets your approval is another question entirely. |
The question of whether the curriculum of these colleges meet "my approval" is indeed a different question (and one that I have not addressed), but the question of whether it focuses on subject-skills or teaching-skills is not. That's integral to my argument. Are teaching-skills considered essential in China? A good way of answering that question is to consider the extent to which Chinese teachers learn about teaching methodology as opposed to subject skills. |
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sheeba
Joined: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 1123
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| Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 12:07 am Post subject: |
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| , but wouldn't this increase the demand for (now more qualified) teachers? |
Yeah. Sorry if not too clear. Qualified teachers will be in demand. I agree. And more of them but generally jobs will be fewer I think.
The Teacher's role will decline as learners work on their individual strategies and styles to aid their acquisition. Anyone who has learnt a language knows the importance of learner autonomy.
As for engaging in active learning, strategies are not so closely related to communicative procedures in class which although make entertaining learning are no solution. Artificial learning via CLL is not the way to go.
So much is individual to a student when learning.
Throwing 40 different styles together with 20 different needs IS a waste of money and time especially when devising different methods for your class (CLL,Silent method,Natural method,Audiolingual and so on.). You can't cater for all that even with eclectic approaches.
Unfortunately(maybe fortunate for teachers) students in China are learnt helpless to the point that they need someone to help them physically move their behinds. This will be the sole reason that jobs will remain for those teaching the higher level.
My reasons for smaller groups and only the 'elite' concentrating on English in the future are based on my thoughts on the way the economy will steer in the future.
Sorry if Off topic at all. |
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vikuk
Joined: 23 May 2007
Posts: 1842
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| Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 12:43 am Post subject: |
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| Unfortunately(maybe fortunate for teachers) students in China are learnt helpless to the point that they need someone to help them physically move their behinds. This will be the sole reason that jobs will remain for those teaching the higher level. |
Ohhhh come on Sheeba - I strongly believe, in so many situations, that the sole reason so many laowai are employed as FT is for the purpose of generating money. And even if you have contention with the word "sole" - its hard to deny that our cash-cow qualities and not our teaching qualities are those which so often are firmly set in focus by our employers.
Look at the situation in many public unis. Even though many FT's claim they work for such a uni - in actual fact many work for private extra curricula projects organised by the staff - who rent both classrooms and the uni's license to hire FT's - and charge extra fees from the students who participate (or indeed recruit students from outside who get some sort of diploma which sports the uni's name). How popular these courses are - and how willing students are to pay high fees - I can only guess at through the high demand for FT's to teach them. My contention that these projects seem to be mainly focused on profit making and not the specific task of teaching English - is based on the assumption that the project organisers often seem to put qualification and experience on the back-burner - while of course putting to the fore-front applicant appearance and the cheapness of FT wage demand.
Here again is just another example of the driving force behind so-called �public� FT employment being private profit. |
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william wallace
Joined: 14 May 2003
Posts: 2869
Location: in between
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| Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 1:37 am Post subject: |
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| I contend that this "cash cow" problem transcends mere English instruction and goes right up to legit degrees abroad, though usually under the guise of those 1+2+1, 2+2 etc plans (2 years in China,2 years in Australia, Canada, USA...) |
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johnchina
Joined: 24 Apr 2006
Posts: 816
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| Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 1:54 am Post subject: none |
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| Absolutely, WW! Don't forget to add the 'agencies' that 'help' with visas and the language testing (IELTS/TOEFL). As vikuk implies, the unis are in on these aspects too. |
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vikuk
Joined: 23 May 2007
Posts: 1842
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| Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 2:58 am Post subject: |
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And lets us not forget how and where the FT is employed in other fields of so-called public education. State primary and middle-schools are banded into different classes - with the elite schools, ones which are officially allowed to charge a great deal extra for extra teaching services often going under the title - experimental school. (The fee situation works in a way that the parent pays the basic fee, which is the same as any other public school - but on top of this has to pay extra for extra teaching services - which don't just include English from FT's. In these school you can't just decide to take a basic package - you have to pay for all of it - with only extra curricula activity being something the parent can decide whether or not to enroll their kids into).
Despite these fees (and they are a very hefty increase on the basic public school fee - just listen to parents moaning about them) - many parents seem so eager to enroll their kids into them that some go to the extreme of buying houses in the school's catchment area (you come first on the enrolment list if you live in the catchment area - and don�t have to pay yet another fee that is charged for those who live outside the area). There are also numerous stories of parents paying bribes to get their kids into these schools.
By the way - the popularity of these schools doesn't really reflect parent satisfaction with them - but more a deep distrust and dissatisfation with the basic public school system.
These are the type of primary/middle school that are given license to employ FT's - and these type of schools are found in every big town in China - after all even the so called poor provinces can support a minority of rich citizens who are willing to pay high fees for the education of their kids.
Many Chinese complain that a great deal of money generated by these schools seems to be siphoned off into the pockets of various officials and school leaders - and complain that in educational development the basic public school has been starved of resources because they don't have the under-the-table cash making potential of the experimental schools.
So FT's if you do enter the public school system for a next to volunteer wage � thinking that you�re helping a developing country and its poor - please check out what part of the system you are being persuaded by your recruiters to enter (check out what type of school it is if they tell you that the wages are low because the students are poor) - since that part of it where you intended your energies to be focused, may not be even be officially open to the hiring of FT's, and your recruiter may have a whole other devious agenda. But then again its dead easy to find work in the public system if you don�t mind helping to generate extra profit for a few greedy hands � the laws of FT employment has left the doors wide open for you to join in here. And even as painful as this situation is (after all our sticky hands could also be said to be dipping into the honeypot) � good teachers can do a good job in this sector � but there is no good reason why they should do it for next to no money (there are plenty of bad ones)!!!!!
By the way - my posts are not intendet as a "critic" on those of who work/volunteer in real areas of Chinese need - but then again I don't think many aid workers are out there teaching English as a top priority!!!!! |
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