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arioch36
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 3589
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 Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 11:24 am Post subject: |
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Anda
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| From what I see, and considering that I have a number of close Chinese teacher friends I would say that the management are not worried in the slightest about the education of the students in their care as long as nobody rocks the boat. |
I have also developed a lot of teaching friends... and 100% ditto
We were talking about qualifications, and this is the single biggest one. Innovator means trouble maker here. You want to educate students, fine.. as long as you don't make waves.
There is a Chinese law in education ... if the students misses ten classes in one class, and five in another (I think I have that right) they should be refused advancement to the next grade. The boys (usually) that don't go to your class (oh, they are just poor in English is the typical cultural answer), these boys usually don't go to other classes.
So I was teaching a class that had one or two? (three years ago) students like this. It was effecting the class moral, especially the boys in the dorm that had to put up with him (6 to a room).
The older teachers would never fail him, too much bother ( the idea in theory is that if a student fails, the teacher should have 6 contact hours with him the next semester, to help prepare him to retake the test .. nice in theory)
Two of the young teachers also saw the negative impact this student was having. We together, as required, wrote to the department that the student had missed many classes, came back to the dorm late at night, smoking, playing computer games, keeping roomates awake. That as college (nationwide I believe) calls for, he should be disciplined asked to go home for the semester, and start over the next year (in CHina you can't just switch schools)
Result? Yep, they (the teachers) were cautioned about being troublesome, and the teachers were told not to talk to the laowai
Honest truth
(PS ... most schools have supported my individual efforts to fail such students ... never had a grade changed in six years ... to my knowledge
last year a total of 6 students failed, and they had to come back and pass my final test, and get my written signature) |
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johnchina
Joined: 24 Apr 2006
Posts: 816
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| Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 12:12 pm Post subject: none |
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| Gotta love that reasoning - "He doesn't come to class because his English is poor." How about, "His English is poor because he doesn't come to class"? (Hear the "whoosh!" as that goes over almost every Chinese person's head!) |
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Itsme
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 624
Location: Houston, TX
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| Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 11:52 pm Post subject: |
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| I really cant tell ya why your students doesn't care |
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Katja84
Joined: 06 May 2007
Posts: 165
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| Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 9:53 am Post subject: Re: Why doesn't my school/department/students care? |
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| kev7161 wrote: |
| Why don't so many schools care about the FTs and their "Spoken English" classes? Why do you have 50, 60, 70 students crammed into your classroom? Why don't you have adequate teaching materials? Why, why, why? |
Some others have mentioned the same, but I wouldn't say our situation is on average worse than the situation of the Chinese teachers. Whereas my oral English classes had 30 students and my largest class overall was 50, my Chinese collegues had to put up with 180 students crammed into a classroom. Whereas I got away with getting the university to pay for photocopies for three months without question and was allowed to do so later on too in special circumstances, and were allowed to choose my own books, my Chinese collegues were told to make do with the book offered and the blackboard. This may be different in private schools or more affluent regions, but at least in the backwaters were I worked FTs were taken ten times more seriously than Chinese teachers if they ever had any requests or concerns. |
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SnoopBot
Joined: 21 Jun 2007
Posts: 740
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 5:18 pm Post subject: Re: Why doesn't my school/department/students care? |
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| Katja84 wrote: |
| kev7161 wrote: |
| Why don't so many schools care about the FTs and their "Spoken English" classes? Why do you have 50, 60, 70 students crammed into your classroom? Why don't you have adequate teaching materials? Why, why, why? |
Some others have mentioned the same, but I wouldn't say our situation is on average worse than the situation of the Chinese teachers. Whereas my oral English classes had 30 students and my largest class overall was 50, my Chinese collegues had to put up with 180 students crammed into a classroom. Whereas I got away with getting the university to pay for photocopies for three months without question and was allowed to do so later on too in special circumstances, and were allowed to choose my own books, my Chinese collegues were told to make do with the book offered and the blackboard. This may be different in private schools or more affluent regions, but at least in the backwaters were I worked FTs were taken ten times more seriously than Chinese teachers if they ever had any requests or concerns. |
Maybe true but 2 wrongs do not make 1 right. Why not try to change the situation to benefit the students?
Those backwater areas must take teacher input more seriously as the other areas use the English teaching circuit as a money-making scheme only.
Some of those affluent schools including international ones, will not allow you to "fail" a student that comes from a well-connected familiy.
I'm sure once you get your degree and TEFL certification and return to the teaching circuit you will be able to experience some of these unique situations some of us had the honor to experience.
I will also add that you will be paid almost the same as you did without a degree or TEFL certificate.
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FuzzX
Joined: 14 Oct 2004
Posts: 122
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| Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 11:05 pm Post subject: |
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So, to sum up my fellow educators, if/when China gets good, qualified teachers that tend to look at the long term and stay at a school (if they can possibly bear it!) for more than a couple minutes, then conditions may improve. But as long as the majority are short-term, happy feet travelers, it's pretty much going to be business as usual. |
Kev you are forgetting something here... We are employees first and teachers second. Students are customers first and learners second. Do you think schools really care about quality education ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD? If your answer is yes, you are in the wrooooooong business.
We are walking money machines to schools... All this academic hoity toity is just BS.. CELTA/TESOL/TEFL/BA... why do you need those? To teach better? Not really... Its a big scam! We pay a large amount of cash to learn what you could get for $10 in library fines. Then we goto work for a school owner who most likely has never even touched a book in his life.
He throws us about 1/10th for a month of what he makes in about 1 week.
He goes home to a huge house with a satellite TV, Ferrari and a super hot wife. You go home to a 1 room shared apartment where your toilet doubles as your bathtub and your room-mate is a drunken slag usually passed out in a pile of his own filth with tonights prostitute student of choice. This whole ESL world is a huge mega billion dollar business.. and all this academic bullshit of conferring titles on people is the smoke screen to keep us busy while the owners rake in the cash.
So why do we keep our jobs? Because the other option is working the drive thru at Dunkin Donuts.
I mean seriously how would you like to be forced to go learn some weird fccking language like swalindopiglatin just to get a dirty low paying job in the drive thru at Dunkin Donuts... Your damn straight your students don't want to come to class. The job of the typical ESL Teacher is to make learning this crap a little easier and a little less boring for the students so that their lives don't completely suck.
www.englishteacherx.com www.englishdroid.com |
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Shan-Shan
Joined: 28 Aug 2003
Posts: 1074
Location: electric pastures
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| Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 4:12 am Post subject: |
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| We pay a large amount of cash to learn what you could get for $10 in library fines. |
Excellent point. With resources galore in libraries, bookstores and online, learning the TESL trade only requires reading skills and a classroom to test out what the books and interviews are suggesting. Spending thousands on certificates/advanced degrees to do a job is excessive, but necessary if one wants to feel secure that his/her 4,000RMB a month won't dry up soon. |
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kev7161
Joined: 06 Feb 2004
Posts: 5880
Location: Suzhou, China
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| Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 9:01 am Post subject: |
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| You go home to a 1 room shared apartment where your toilet doubles as your bathtub and your room-mate is a drunken slag usually passed out in a pile of his own filth with tonights prostitute student of choice. |
Is there anyone reading this TRULY in a situation like this and, if so, for the love of god - - WHY? |
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latefordinner
Joined: 19 Aug 2003
Posts: 973
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| Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 12:35 pm Post subject: |
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| It's called hyperbole, Kev. When that poster has passed his/her twentieth birthday, has sufficiently engaged others in reasoned discussion and has seen his/her better ideas gain a measure of acceptance on the basis of merit rather than rhetoric, thus achieving personal validation, you'll see less of it. |
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arioch36
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 3589
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| Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 12:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Do you think schools really care about quality education ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD? |
Yes, most definitely. Now the school, has an organizational entity cares about it's growth and survival, I believe this. The people in in care about the education. Most Chinese teachers I know care, though they may not be as readily willing to rock the boat over perceived injustices as those theachers from the Western cultural community.
One problem in China is that the leaders in the past were not teachers or educators, but strictly party people. But many of them cared about the students doing well.
A school should care about two bottom lines, the students' success, and revenue. Actually part of the problem in the past effecting today is that these leaders who wern't educators cared for neither, as the schools money was all from the government, In the past the tuition and charges for students was oravtically nil (I think they did pay for their own food)
Long term success/profitability and quality product (here, educaation) go
hand in hand |
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arioch36
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 3589
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| Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 1:09 pm Post subject: |
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Quote:
We pay a large amount of cash to learn what you could get for $10 in library fines. |
About the only part of Fuzzy's adolescent diatribe I would bother remembering. I would mostly concur. These can be said for just about all classes everywhere. The exceptional student has the self-discipline and academic ability to self study and gain book knowledge on their own. Much of what we do in the college or high school class is listen to the teacher tell us what the book says, which we are too lazy to read.
Yet, the role of the teacher in these classes, just like our role in the classroom, can not seem to be replaced.Of course, that is a constant source of debate in CHina, should learning be from books only. And Fuzzy's logic (pun?) would then be that knowledge should or can be from books only. I would disagree. If he was right, I would have a one-room apartment to share with my wife and the other roomate  |
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tw
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
Posts: 3898
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| Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 8:07 am Post subject: Re: Why doesn't my school/department/students care? |
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| Katja84 wrote: |
| Some others have mentioned the same, but I wouldn't say our situation is on average worse than the situation of the Chinese teachers. Whereas my oral English classes had 30 students and my largest class overall was 50, my Chinese collegues had to put up with 180 students crammed into a classroom. Whereas I got away with getting the university to pay for photocopies for three months without question and was allowed to do so later on too in special circumstances, and were allowed to choose my own books, my Chinese collegues were told to make do with the book offered and the blackboard. This may be different in private schools or more affluent regions, but at least in the backwaters were I worked FTs were taken ten times more seriously than Chinese teachers if they ever had any requests or concerns. |
Whereas Chinese teachers could prepare lessons during lunch breaks since they can just teach by reading right out of the textbooks and not care whether the students are listening or sleeping, we as FT's have to actually make an effort to prepare lesson materials and see to it that students do learn something from us. |
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Shan-Shan
Joined: 28 Aug 2003
Posts: 1074
Location: electric pastures
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| Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 10:09 am Post subject: |
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I am curious as to whether "Katja84" has ever been to more than one learning establishment in China. Everywhere I've been -- and I'm presuming that this goes for most posters here -- Chinese English teachers just read from the text book:
Week I: Recite chapters 1-3
Week II: Recite chapters 4-6
Week III: Recite chapters 7-9...
Perhaps English Language Education in Ningxia/Gansu is far more advanced than elsewhere. But from what I've seen, it's the FTs who put in more of an effort, be there photocopying machines available or not. The average CT just explains the meanings of words and grammar structures; the FT does this plus devises ways to assist students in implementing these vital aspects of language.
Twice the work for the same, or less, pay. |
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arioch36
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 3589
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| Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 5:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Whereas Chinese teachers could prepare lessons during lunch breaks since they can just teach by reading right out of the textbooks and not care whether the students are listening or sleeping, we as FT's have to actually make an effort to prepare lesson materials and see to it that students do learn something from us. |
True, but for us it is a labour of love. We probably shouldn't even accept money for our work. So my FAO assures me. Can I have a group hug?
I saw my Dean teaching yesterday. Several boys in the back openly sleeping. I know it has to be a cultural thing ... if I could accept such an atmosphere, I guess my life would be easier. Though I guess it's good exercise to constantly prowl the classroom to make sure every student is working.
In their defense, the Chinese who actually work (let me qualify, the Chinese who must constantly be in one place or another, regardless of whether the time spent has any productive value) have little free time to truly grade papers or plan innovative classes. They waste more time in meetings then I did back in the states. Though I am told that for many of the "inspirational meetings, teachers catch up on students' homework |
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Katja84
Joined: 06 May 2007
Posts: 165
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| Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 7:22 pm Post subject: Re: Why doesn't my school/department/students care? |
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| SnoopBot wrote: |
| Maybe true but 2 wrongs do not make 1 right. Why not try to change the situation to benefit the students? |
Indeed, it doesn't make it right - but it does change the focus of the original question and thus the answers received: The initial post stated 1. schools don't care about their FTs and their Spoken English classes and 2. this is because FTs don't stay long-term. But what if Chinese teachers do stay long-term and yet schools don't care about their classes either? Is the reason why schools don't care about the FTs classes still the fact that many don't stay long-term, or could the reason why schools don't care about the classes of Chinese and foreign teachers be one and the same (whatever that is)?
Shan-Shan:
| Quote: |
I am curious as to whether "Katja84" has ever been to more than one learning establishment in China. Everywhere I've been -- and I'm presuming that this goes for most posters here -- Chinese English teachers just read from the text book:
Week I: Recite chapters 1-3
Week II: Recite chapters 4-6
Week III: Recite chapters 7-9...
Perhaps English Language Education in Ningxia/Gansu is far more advanced than elsewhere. But from what I've seen, it's the FTs who put in more of an effort, be there photocopying machines available or not. |
I am beginning to find the constant references to my (lack of) experience in China more than a little amusing. I guess it's not just enough to address my arguments, is it? If you think my experiences have given me the wrong impression of China, then just say so - "Katja, actually in most schools in China the Chinese teachers ARE allowed to do photocopying whereas the foreign teachers are not". I have, as I can recall, never said anything about how much effort Chinese teachers put into their work in comparison with foreign teachers, but I actually do agree with you that foreign teachers (on average) put in more effort than Chinese teachers (on average). (Not quite sure how this relates to my posts so feel free to spell it out ) |
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