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Phil_K
Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2041
Location: A World of my Own
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Phil_K
Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2041
Location: A World of my Own
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 Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 8:25 pm Post subject: |
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Being someone who likes an adventure, I've invited David Cameron to join the discussion - let's see what happens  |
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Gary Denness
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| Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 8:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Phil_K wrote: |
Thanks Gary, you've got me going now! I love it...
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| Blairs highlights, in my opinion - WTD, NMW, foreign policy pre 2003, Northern Ireland. Amongst others. |
NI was largely engineered by John Major, with Blair taking the credit...
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Having listened to Cameron, my feeling is, that when translated from Polispeak into English, he is effectively saying...
"I today propose to implement whatever it is that the media say I should implement, the opposite of everything the media says is shouldn't have been implemented, and will endeavor to run an even more effective spin campaign than Campbell's" |
The serious media generally reflects the wishes of the people, so there is nothing wrong with "listening to the people", something most politicians promise but rarely do. In general though, that is unfair. I think Cameron is like Blair, but only in the sense that he realises that the Party needs change, and of course like Blair that is partly personal ambition, but I think Cameron is a conviction politician, not afraid to be unpopular at times...unlike Blair.
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| As for Thatcher! She's always good for a heated debate! She utterly destroyed British industry... |
Exactly the opposite, her policies renewed the enterprise spirit
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| There is no single person bearing greater responsibility for where the country is today than Margaret Thatcher |
Correct!!! For the good!
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| Thatcher followed Reagan's economic policy, and like it or not, that policy was to dominate the global economy. Could we do anything other than go with the flow? Probably not. |
Exactly the opposite. Thatcher's influence stretched beyond the shores of the UK...again for the good.
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| Thatcher was perhaps the right person at the right time, but in my opinion, 2007 UK isn't the time or place for a repeat. |
There is always a time and a place for a great leader. I can't think of another political leader than had a plan, implemented that plan and left a country in infinitely better shape than he/she found it. If a new leader can learn at least some of these lessons, which I believe Cameron has, then great. |
I would agree that Major deserves more credit than he generally gets - the concept was his. He had the basic concept. But having the basic concept does not a peace maker make. If the Good Friday peace talks had failed, would John Major have been to blame?
I suspect we might seriously disagree with who the serious media are, what and who they represent, and how they influence the population at large! I know it's a generalisation, but I sincerely believe that most people are essentially stupid. A journalist's dream...
Regards conviction and doing something unpopular....name me a single politition who has ever gone against such clearly demonstrated wishes of such a substantial part of the population as Blair, when he took the UK to war in Iraq?
Renewing the enterprise spirit and destroying industry are very seperate issues. The enterprise she encouraged was largely in trade and finance, not in industry.
She did renew enterprise though, I agree. Then destroyed it. Then renewed it again. Then destroyed it again. Hence the phrase 'boom and bust'. |
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Gary Denness
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| Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 8:57 pm Post subject: |
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Thatcher took her economic policy from Reagan, who had developed his from Milton Friedman's concept of laissez faire. That in itself was not a new idea. The British had implemented it during Empire. Tens of millions died as a result.
Militarily, Britain has not been a power capable of 'leading' since '56, when Eden gave it a go. Economically, we have not lead since Thatcher handed our economy over to the markets (which many other had already done/were soon to do independently of anything Britain might do). The proof of that came when Major tried to fight the markets for control of GBP.
| Phil_K wrote: |
A specific example, perhaps not, but I just feel that as one of the major economic nations of the world, what happened in the UK in the '80s was reflected among other economies. Hard to put your finger on exactly, but there all the same.
There! that's a good politicians answer! |
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Phil_K
Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2041
Location: A World of my Own
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| Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 9:58 pm Post subject: |
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| I suspect we might seriously disagree with who the serious media are, what and who they represent, and how they influence the population at large! I know it's a generalisation, but I sincerely believe that most people are essentially stupid. A journalist's dream... |
That is a sad fact, equally true in the Mexican elections (AMLO) as in the UK. I, and many others suspect The Sun won the 1997 election for Labour by changing sides. (Who is The Sun supporting now?). For the record I'm a Daily Telegraph reader (still read the online version)
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| Regards conviction and doing something unpopular....name me a single politition who has ever gone against such clearly demonstrated wishes of such a substantial part of the population as Blair, when he took the UK to war in Iraq? |
Name a politician who took unpopular decisions for the good of the country (except Thatcher). See where Blairs decision got him (and us) and compare with Thatcher.
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| Renewing the enterprise spirit and destroying industry are very seperate issues. The enterprise she encouraged was largely in trade and finance, not in industry. |
True and something which still needs to be addressed, but in any case a good way to restore an economy. Not by throwing money at the unemployed, not by taxing the rich, but by encouraging wealth creation, reaping the taxes and starting the cycle of growth.
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| Thatcher took her economic policy from Reagan, who had developed his from Milton Friedman's concept of laissez faire. That in itself was not a new idea. The British had implemented it during Empire. Tens of millions died as a result. |
Thatcher starting developing her policy along with Keith Joseph when she became Conservative leader in 1975, I am not aware of any alliance between Thatcher and Reagan dating from that time. I am not an expert on economics but I thought her policy was Keynesian. I doubt very much that she took it from Reagan...unless you have evidence. |
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Gary Denness
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| Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 11:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Phil_K wrote: |
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| I suspect we might seriously disagree with who the serious media are, what and who they represent, and how they influence the population at large! I know it's a generalisation, but I sincerely believe that most people are essentially stupid. A journalist's dream... |
That is a sad fact, equally true in the Mexican elections (AMLO) as in the UK. I, and many others suspect The Sun won the 1997 election for Labour by changing sides. (Who is The Sun supporting now?). For the record I'm a Daily Telegraph reader (still read the online version)
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| Regards conviction and doing something unpopular....name me a single politition who has ever gone against such clearly demonstrated wishes of such a substantial part of the population as Blair, when he took the UK to war in Iraq? |
Name a politician who took unpopular decisions for the good of the country (except Thatcher). See where Blairs decision got him (and us) and compare with Thatcher.
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| Renewing the enterprise spirit and destroying industry are very seperate issues. The enterprise she encouraged was largely in trade and finance, not in industry. |
True and something which still needs to be addressed, but in any case a good way to restore an economy. Not by throwing money at the unemployed, not by taxing the rich, but by encouraging wealth creation, reaping the taxes and starting the cycle of growth.
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| Thatcher took her economic policy from Reagan, who had developed his from Milton Friedman's concept of laissez faire. That in itself was not a new idea. The British had implemented it during Empire. Tens of millions died as a result. |
Thatcher starting developing her policy along with Keith Joseph when she became Conservative leader in 1975, I am not aware of any alliance between Thatcher and Reagan dating from that time. I am not an expert on economics but I thought her policy was Keynesian. I doubt very much that she took it from Reagan...unless you have evidence. |
Personally, I would double, if not triple check, anything I read from the print media of the UK, Telegraph included.
You're changing the rules regards 'conviction politicians'!
I apologise if I've suggested Thatcher took her economic policies directly from Reagan. She adopted her policies from Friedman (Joseph too) along with Reagan. From your own rag....!
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/11/17/nmfried17.xml |
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Phil_K
Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2041
Location: A World of my Own
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Gary Denness
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| Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 9:28 pm Post subject: |
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I have mixed feelings on this. I appreciate that in the UK we vote for a party, not specifically a Prime Minister. but the fact remains that each party has different factions, with different agendas and policy ideaologies.
I personally think that in the event of a new PM taking up office, an election should be obligatory within 6 months. I don't believe Blair should have resigned this year, having been elected in 2005 as leader of the Labour Party. When he stood at that election, he should have stood as a candidate with intention to serve the full term, not just a part of. Or (preferably, imo) he should not have stood at all. |
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Phil_K
Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2041
Location: A World of my Own
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| Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 2:40 pm Post subject: |
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Pretty much agree with that. I think the only PM's in recent times to seek election and then resign were Blair and Harold Wilson. James Callaghan never had a mandate and John Major lasted 2 years without a mandate but got elected fair and square in 1992. A little "presidencial" of Blair to do what he did, but that's how he is. I remember him referring to himself as "head of state" (!)  |
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Gary Denness
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| Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 2:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Phil_K wrote: |
| Pretty much agree with that. I think the only PM's in recent times to seek election and then resign were Blair and Harold Wilson. James Callaghan never had a mandate and John Major lasted 2 years without a mandate but got elected fair and square in 1992. A little "presidencial" of Blair to do what he did, but that's how he is. I remember him referring to himself as "head of state" (!) |
I remember Jack Straw referring to Blair as HoS, but not Blair himself.
Anyway, who knows, Brown may get his mandate in 2 years time just as Major did. |
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Phil_K
Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2041
Location: A World of my Own
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| Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 3:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Anyway, who knows, Brown may get his mandate in 2 years time just as Major did. |
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Gary Denness
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| Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 5:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Phil_K wrote: |
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| Anyway, who knows, Brown may get his mandate in 2 years time just as Major did. |
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All the important decisions are taken by corporations these days anyway! We should just cut the crap and accept UK PLC as the future!
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reddevil79
Joined: 19 Jul 2004
Posts: 234
Location: Neither here nor there
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| Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 10:12 pm Post subject: |
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I wasn't that surprised an election wasn't called. Why risk all the good work coming to an end in a few weeks when we can go on for a few years yet 
I think a lot of people of my generation (high school in the 90s) have been put off the tories for life. Our schools were underfunded, hospitals in a state, economy was dire.....the list goes on.
I actually felt sorry for Cameron with all the sniping going on from his party, but he had the change the tories. I just wonder how many tories support him.
I do think it was a scandal that Ken Clarke was never leader. Now there was a good guy (for a tory  ) |
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Phil_K
Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2041
Location: A World of my Own
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| Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 11:38 pm Post subject: |
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| I wasn't that surprised an election wasn't called. Why risk all the good work coming to an end in a few weeks when we can go on for a few years yet |
What good work? and "We" don't want to wait.
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| I think a lot of people of my generation (high school in the 90s) have been put off the tories for life. |
When I was in high school (1979/81) I was a Tory among socialists! It's very common when young to be reactionary and left-leaning...but don't worry, you grow out of it |
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Gary Denness
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| Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 2:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Phil_K wrote: |
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| I wasn't that surprised an election wasn't called. Why risk all the good work coming to an end in a few weeks when we can go on for a few years yet |
What good work? and "We" don't want to wait.
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| I think a lot of people of my generation (high school in the 90s) have been put off the tories for life. |
When I was in high school (1979/81) I was a Tory among socialists! It's very common when young to be reactionary and left-leaning...but don't worry, you grow out of it |
I've already mentioned some of the 'good work!'. It's a rare politician in the UK who can spend ten years in office and do nothing of benefit to anyone. Blair was not that rare. The economy has without doubt remained strong, particularly in comparison to the EU. You previously mentioned Cameron and the environment - his words have been more than matched by Blair's action. It's a little disingenuous to suggest that there has been no 'good work'.
Other than the obvious - Iraq, what were his failings? There are many, as there are with any government regardless of the party they represent.
And 'we'? Neither of you are speaking for the population as a whole! Although Labour did win the last election, so as far as talking for the electorate is concerned, I'd side with RedDevil.
I fit fairly between the two of you - I am well aware of the economic turmoil pre Thatcher. But that can be attributed to WW2, loss of empire and the unions as much as, if not more than, any government. Thatcher's crowning achievement was in the desperately needed destruction of union power, and placing the economy on a more capitalist footing. But she went too far too quickly, and adopted some insane ideas - overall her economic ideaology was a disaster. Health and education suffered terribly, and the job of all PM's since has been simply to try and stop the decline.
Without doubt though, Thatcher sits alongside Attlee as the most important, influential and 'revolutionary' of the post war PM's. For good and/or bad. |
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