Job Discussion Forums

[grahamb]

Employers require prospective employees to have certain qualifications and experience. If they say a degree + CELTA (or equivalent), that's what they want. Having a degree does not mean you'll be a better teacher, but it'll certainly improve your employment prospects.

[soapdodger]

The content of degree courses today is so appallingly juvenile, except in the case of maths or science-based subjects ( which no-one does because they might involve something taxing like thinking), that whether someone has one or not is irrelevant. Universities serve two main purposes: to keep a large proportion of otherwise unemployable youths off the statistics and to ensure that said youths start their working lives up to the hilt in debt and hence condemned to wage-slavery. An added bonus is that once they are issued with a nicely-printed bit of paper that says they're intelligent, people actually believe it, and in many cases never tire of telling others despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

Evidence? This summer a Saudi student who had failed his yearly exams in Human Resources Management ( this is a subject worthy of tertiary education ? Oh Lordy) at a "university" in the UK showed me the official breakdown of his results. For one course element 42% constituted a pass, whilst in another, despite getting 28% in one of the 3 sub-categories of the element, 40-something in the next and about 52 in the third, he still passed the element. Further, he admitted to having paid someone to write one of the other papers that got a pass ( his best one), which must have been glaringly obvious to the marker considering he was incapable of writing a sentence in English that made sense, let alone had any grammatical structure. Before anyone even starts formulating the argument that that was only because he was a foreign student paying high tuition fees ( in itself no justification), the same pathetic standards apply to native "students" as well because there is so much rubbish in the system now that institutions dare not fail the substandard otherwise all that would be filling the corridors of academe would be autumn leaves and old newspapers.

[fluffyhamster]

For all we know, soapdodger, you could be that type of guy that we all sometimes meet in a bar who seems to want to do nothing other than get drunk and smash the place up, but here you are, arguing about something with eloquence and passion. Could it be that people do in fact derive something from their schooling and university education, but just need to find the appropriate outlet for their specific talents (if they haven't completed an immediately useful sort of degree, that is)? The fact that there are so-so teachers around might be due to them simply having picked the wrong profession (and a profession which does not prepare teachers as well as it should); if however a person starts to feel that they may be suited to teaching, they can improve on paper at least by reading, joining places like Dave's etc (and, dare I say, with a degree or not - I am not sure that even MAs provide satisfactory answers to question that may be of concern to the individual teacher - look at the selection of modules that are on offer in some institutions. I wouldn't want to do (m)any of them!).

[soapdodger]

Dear Fluffyhamster, As usual I seem to hit the nerve of someone, causing them to try to be personally offensive. Please read my post again. I did not mention "teacher" or "EFL" once. It was a comment on the parlous condition of higher education today in general. Why so upset?

[fluffyhamster]

No nerve damage here, soap (hope there's none at your end, either) - was just meant to edge the chat further along. Actually I don't think much of most education, and certainly don't brag about my degree, but I don't see that as any reason to say that everyone doing degrees nowadays is any more stupid than I undoubtedly was (and still sometimes am).

[merlin]

Well, I'm glad the debate is finally settled once and for all! And all it took was some guy to say so.

[Justin Trullinger]

I think we've all known enough dumb degree holders to realize that it having a degree doesn't prove you've got brains.

But, it doesn't prove you haven't. We've all know smart degree holders as well.

NOT having a degree doesn't prove you're smart either though... so where would you start, as an employer?

Best,
Justin

[FuzzX]

As I said I'm not looking to be subsidized, I did my previous diplomas at private colleges (2 year, 1 year). I can pay, thats no problem at all. I'd be entering as a mature student (27). I am not looking for credit towards those previous diplomas. My reason for getting the degree is solely to clear up any issues with immigration otherwise I feel, as a teacher, a degree is completely useless.

The problem is that the university would like to reject me on the basis that I have attended and graduated a previous college program. Thats all...
I have talked with two deans from this university aswell as a prof from Toronto U. One of them will be accompanying me to another admissions interview. I will keep you posted.

[soapdodger]

Where would you start as an employer? Set a test of your own devising to determine if the candidate can do what you need. If you can't do that, sack yourself and leave it to someone else to find a replacement.

[Justin Trullinger]

Hmmm-

Try it another way- as part of a reputable institute, I have to register the teachers working for me with the ministry of education. If they don't have a degree, I need a DARN good reason why I hired them. (They had a lot of experience simply won't cut it, by the way.)

In terms of a test of my own devising, I have one. It's long, so I'll spare you all the details. But one item on it is that I prefer to hire people who have proved, at some point, that they can stick to something. Say, that they've dedicated three to five years of their life to accomplishing a goal, to some professional or educational endeavour. A degree isn't the only thing...but it's one.

What I don't get is that all the "don't have a degree, and it's only prejudice that makes it necessary" crowd doesn't offer much as an alternative. A degree is no guarantee, but does say something. Not having one says...nothing. If you have no degree, what do you have, that should convince me you're a good risk? I'd be more than happy to hire someone with a cert, some experience, who's heading towards a diploma qualification without a degree, in preference over someone who has an irrelevant degree.

But what happens a lot is the "no degree, no qualifications, but I'm very good" argument. All I have is an applicant's word for it. Not a good risk. They may be very good, but why should anyone take the chance?

And experience is also a bogus argument in many cases. If you have no qualifications but a lot of experience, I'm forced to assume that you got the experience in the kind of school where they'll hire without training orexperience. Not necessarily the kind of place to offer a lot of staff development or quality control. Unless I know the school where you got the experience, and I mean know them well enough to call them and know they aren't BSing me, then experience may be a great thing, but experience and nothing else carries little weight.

So when all's said and done, no degree- fine. But you're going to have to show something if you don't want to start at the very bottom. It's possible, of course, to start at the bottom rung and work your way up-with or without a degree. But if you're looking to start any higher- get something.

Get some certs, get a diploma, get a BA, get an MA, get whatever you can. But nobody with a lot of brains is going to hire you without something

Best

Justin

[soapdodger]

Good to hear that someone is trying to apply rigorous standards in EFL. You must have a constant staffing crisis! But seriously, I've done a fair bit of hiring, and unfortunately a little firing, in my time and I rely on my intuition in the final decision whether to offer a job. Normally it works, but on rare occasions it doesn't. Once I employed an American who came in off the street when we really did have a staffing crisis, who had minored in English but no teaching experience as such. He seemed able to do the job, so I gave him a trial and sure enough clients were very happy with him, he took lessons at unsocial times and was happy to take covers and, well, was a DoS's ideal teacher. Everything was fine for about a year and a half until he threatened a student at a major company with a knife during a lesson ( how we didn't lose the contract was a miracle!). Some things cannot be forseen, no selection process is without flaws. There's a book somewhere, can't remember authors, called "Deception in Selection" ...essential for EFL management. It analyses how applicants and employers lie.

[TheLongWayHome]

[Justin Trullinger]

[FuzzX]

DOUBLE POST

[FuzzX]

Well heres the update:

Went to an interview with the dean of education who spoke to the previous dean of the university who spoke with the admissions people... I was called in for a second interview where they said there had obviously been something they missed on the application from when they had previously reviewed it and no longer believe that my previous 'private education' will impede my admission into the mature student program.

I guess it really boils down to who you know.

Upon visiting the university grounds and meeting some of the soon-to-be grads I really have no idea how some people can make the assumption that grads are any more useful than factory workers. Most of the people I spoke with are graduating with degrees in bio,chem and business and have no idea what they intend to do with their life (& have also never held a REAL job). I don't see how you can assume these people are automatically more qualified to teach than any other regular joe off the street. In addition most of the students I spoke with that day had the personality of a sponge and the backbone to go with it. Yes these people are certainly destined to make great teachers