|
Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Students and Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
supplendary
Joined: 27 Jan 2007
Posts: 11
Location: Florida, USA
|
 Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 6:05 pm Post subject: Female needing advice before making a permanent move to KSA |
 |
|
Hello everyone,
I posted here in the past and was provided with some very helpful information, so I have another question and would greatly appreciate any answers.
I would like to know whether getting a teacher certification for k-12 from the U.S. would give me any advantage if I already have an M.A. in TESL. I have a B.A. in English and recently learned that having this, obtaining a teacher certification is very easy in the state of Florida. I plan to permanently move to Jeddah with my Saudi husband and children in the next couple of years, so I would like to be able to get whatever I can while I'm still in the U.S. if it will benefit me there.
As a side note, we were recently considering whether I should try for a PhD. The program I am interested is in SLA/IT (Second Language Acquisition and Instructional Technology) and would take about three years to complete. We definitely want to go to Saudi Arabia and are only waiting for me to finish school. I would like to know if getting a PhD in what I mentioned above would make a big difference in pay; is it worth the three years and $20,000 investment?
What can I expect to earn if I go to Saudi with:
B.A. in English: Technical & Professional Writing
M.A. in Linguistics: TESL
PhD in Second Language Acquisition & Instructional Technology
Florida teacher certification for k-12
1-2 years teaching experience
I'm also:
Female & married to a Saudi
Naturalized U.S. citizen with native accent born in Mexico (I came to U.S. very young, so I really do have a native accent)
Fluent in Spanish (with native accent as well)
Arabic name and background (Lebanese from my father's side)
Muslim
I don't speak Arabic, but I can read it and am studying it.
I mentioned some the above because after reading some posts here, I get the impression that some of these things may make a difference in what I get paid.
I greatly appreciate any answers; this is a major life decision, and I would like to be as informed as possible before making it. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Bebsi
Joined: 07 Feb 2005
Posts: 958
|
| Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 8:13 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Having an MA makes getting work in the universities a lot easier, and will net you a supplementary payment on your salary, usually of around 500-1000 SAR a month.
I'd say the girl's campuses of universtities would be your best bet, and with the MA you could expect in the broad region of 12-15k SAR as a teacher, a bit more as a coordinator.
Lots of work for women in schools, but from a financial point of view they're mostly not worth it. Typically, the pay is around 9-11k pm if you are a foreign hire. If you are living there, and are hired locally, you would get quite a bit less.
I doubt if a PhD would make a huge difference to your overall circumstances, as the positions in Saudi Arabian institutions for which a PhD would normally be required, are almost entirely reserved for Saudis.
Being married to one will not automatically make you one, I should add!! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Cleopatra
Joined: 28 Jun 2003
Posts: 3657
Location: Tuamago Archipelago
|
| Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 1:46 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| I'd say the girl's campuses of universtities would be your best bet, and with the MA you could expect in the broad region of 12-15k SAR as a teacher, a bit more as a coordinator. |
Could you please do all the female posters on this board a favour and let us know which places you are referring to? I know many women with MAs and considerable experience, and they earn nowhere near 15K. Most of them earn close to the lower end of your suggested range - some even earn quite a bit less.
| Quote: |
| I doubt if a PhD would make a huge difference to your overall circumstances, as the positions in Saudi Arabian institutions for which a PhD would normally be required, are almost entirely reserved for Saudis. |
It's true that PhD level positions are increasingly filled by Saudis, but I still know of many foreign PhD holders who work in the Kingdom. Gaining this qualification might not dramatically improve your salary, but it might mean you get a cushy job teaching an 'academic' subject with only a few hours' in-class duty a week. With a bit of luck and/or experience, you might even be in the running for a managerial position, though these are usually reserved for Saudi citizens.
| Quote: |
| I get the impression that some of these things may make a difference in what I get paid. |
Not sure where you got that impression from. Obviously your experience and qualifications will make a difference in your salary, but the fact that you are Muslim, married to a Saudi, of Lebanese origin are irrelevant in this regard. Your knowledge of Spanish is also irrelevant unless the institution is interested in having you teach that language as well. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
007
Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 2684
Location: UK/Veteran of the Magic Kingdom
|
| Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 3:41 pm Post subject: Re: Female needing advice before making a permanent move to |
|
|
| supplendary wrote: |
| I would like to know if getting a PhD in what I mentioned above would make a big difference in pay; is it worth the three years and $20,000 investment? |
My advice to you is to get your PhD in what you mentioned, and believe me you will not regret it. With your PhD at your hand, your starting salary in a Saudi university, as an Assistant Professor will be between SR 9000 to SR12000 /month plus other benefits. And there is a possibility that you will be offered an academic/administrative responsibility as well. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Cleopatra
Joined: 28 Jun 2003
Posts: 3657
Location: Tuamago Archipelago
|
| Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 6:07 pm Post subject: |
|
|
[quote]as an Assistant Professor will be between SR 9000 to SR12000 /month plus other benefits.
| Quote: |
Abba's post again proves the silliness of a Maths teacher of indeterminate nationality posting on an ESL forum. While Bebsi's estimates were, IMHO, overly generous, yours are wildly inaccurate in the other direction. No native speaker with a PhD would/should look at a salary of 9000SR. In fact, a freshly minted MA from a "Western" country might turn down such a low starting salary. I can't say what goes on in the world of non-native speaking Maths teachers, nor do I hang out on whatever forums exist to cater to them, but I do know that nobody is going to do a PhD in Linguistics in order to come to Jeddah for 9000SR a month. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
007
Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 2684
Location: UK/Veteran of the Magic Kingdom
|
| Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 6:19 pm Post subject: |
|
|
[quote="Cleopatra"]
| Quote: |
as an Assistant Professor will be between SR 9000 to SR12000 /month plus other benefits.
| Quote: |
Abba's post again proves the silliness of a Maths teacher of indeterminate nationality posting on an ESL forum. While Bebsi's estimates were, IMHO, overly generous, yours are wildly inaccurate in the other direction. No native speaker with a PhD would/should look at a salary of 9000SR. In fact, a freshly minted MA from a "Western" country might turn down such a low starting salary. I can't say what goes on in the world of non-native speaking Maths teachers, nor do I hang out on whatever forums exist to cater to them, but I do know that nobody is going to do a PhD in Linguistics in order to come to Jeddah for 9000SR a month. |
|
First, remove the 'quotes' from your post!
Second, your information is wrong, because the OP is a wife of a Saudi, it will be impossible for her to get a contract for a foreigner 'native-speaker', and they will treat her as a 'resident' and a wife of a Saudi citizen, and she will not get a contract of a foreigner teacher.
So, your post proves the silliness of an English teacher of an Irish nationality with a Sinn Fein accent, and swimming in the desert of the magic kingdom!! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
trapezius
Joined: 13 Aug 2006
Posts: 1670
Location: Land of Culture of Death & Destruction
|
| Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 6:58 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| Not sure where you got that impression from. Obviously your experience and qualifications will make a difference in your salary, but the fact that you are Muslim, married to a Saudi, of Lebanese origin are irrelevant in this regard. |
No, it is not irrelevant. The majority of employers in the Kingdom discriminate based on nationality and/or ethnic origin. Aside from having heard tens and tens of anecdotes, all the places I have looked at (~10 educational institutions of all levels) and all the places my father has worked at over the past 30 years as an engineer, discriminate/have discriminated based on passport and/or ethnic origin.
That doesn't mean all employers are like that, but the great majority are, or seem to be. People with white skin and from Western countries are at the top of the scale, as everyone knows. I have also known employers to hire American citizens from abroad, and then when the employee comes here and they see that he is of Arab or Asian descent with brown skin, they give him a much lower salary than promised. That would never happen to a caucasian.
As for the OP, she speaks like Americans, but probably has brown skin (Lebanese Mexican), and has an Arab name. Different employers would react differently to that. None of us can say what you can expect with a particular employer. You have to come here and find out, but it IS possible that at some universities/schools you won't get as much as you might had you been caucasian.
If you get teacher certification, you can teach in any of the American and British schools in this country (American/British managed, not just American/British curriculum). Those schools don't discriminate based on nationality or ethnicity. Depending on your experience, salaries range from 10,000 to 15,000/month.
There are 3 in Jeddah, 2 in Riyadh, and at least 3-4 in Khobar/Dhahran.
As for what 007 said, how can you (Cleopatra) say that he is wrong? Salaries for PhDs are different at different universities. I can only talk about where I am (a private college). Where I teach, BASE salaries for Assistant Professors range from 8,000 to 17,000. If you are a fresh PhD holder, you start off at 8,000. You also get other benefits, including a transport allowance, living allowance, etc. But base is 8,000. Perhaps at other universities one could expect 10,000 or 12,000 with a fresh PhD, I can't say. So what 007 said is not wildly inaccurate. The fact that 8,000 is horrible for a PhD holder (even a fresh one), doesn't matter. That's what the salary is, at least at my college. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
supplendary
Joined: 27 Jan 2007
Posts: 11
Location: Florida, USA
|
| Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 7:16 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Bebsi wrote: |
I'd say the girl's campuses of universtities would be your best bet, and with the MA you could expect in the broad region of 12-15k SAR as a teacher....
|
Bebsi, I was under the impression that I would be starting a lot lower than that, possibly in the 9K; is this range you are quoting including years of experience? Is the starting pay around the same in all universities around the kingdom, or do some tend to pay more than others?
I think we will be living in Jeddah. I found Effat and Dar-Al-Hikma, but are there any others?
| Cleopatra wrote: |
Not sure where you got that impression from. Obviously your experience and qualifications will make a difference in your salary, but the fact that you are Muslim, married to a Saudi, of Lebanese origin are irrelevant in this regard. Your knowledge of Spanish is also irrelevant unless the institution is interested in having you teach that language as well. |
I guess my concern is if I would be paid less because I am not a US born citizen with an American background. I only hold an American passport because I am a naturalized citizen. I thought that I�ve read here that Arabs, Asians, Africans, and basically those holding a non-western passport tend to get paid less, and even those with western passports may get paid less if they are originally from another country. Is there any truth to this? Am I getting mixed up the treatment with the pay? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
trapezius
Joined: 13 Aug 2006
Posts: 1670
Location: Land of Culture of Death & Destruction
|
| Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 7:28 pm Post subject: |
|
|
See my post about nationality and pay.
In Jeddah:
Effat College
Dar Al Hikma College
College of Business Administration
King Abdul Aziz University
The first 3 are private relatively new colleges. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
supplendary
Joined: 27 Jan 2007
Posts: 11
Location: Florida, USA
|
| Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 8:15 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| 007 wrote: |
�. because the OP is a wife of a Saudi, it will be impossible for her to get a contract for a foreigner 'native-speaker', and they will treat her as a 'resident' and a wife of a Saudi citizen, and she will not get a contract of a foreigner teacher.
|
I thought it would be smart to apply from here and have my employer sponsor me rather than waiting until after I arrive to look for a job, so that I would receive the full benefits package including housing, transportation allowance, etc� and perhaps get a better salary; but I guess at some point they will have to know that my husband is a Saudi unless I don�t let them know that I am married. After all, my husband can go there on his own with our children. My husband has the attitude that you get what you negotiate; I just want to have the best deal I can get.
| trapezius wrote: |
People with white skin and from Western countries are at the top of the scale, as everyone knows. I have also known employers to hire American citizens from abroad, and then when the employee comes here and they see that he is of Arab or Asian descent with brown skin, they give him a much lower salary than promised. That would never happen to a caucasian. As for the OP, she speaks like Americans, but probably has brown skin (Lebanese Mexican), and has an Arab name.
|
Oops, I posted previously before reading your post. Thanks for clarifying. My father has blonde hair with green eyes. Half of my brothers and sisters have blonde hair & blue eyes and look Caucasian and the rest, including myself, have brown hair/eyes but very white skin and could pass for white at times. I am not wearing hijab in my naturalization certificate picture, and I look white for sure, but in my passport picture I am wearing hijab and look more Arab and my name definitely gives it away.
Thanks everyone for your replies! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
trapezius
Joined: 13 Aug 2006
Posts: 1670
Location: Land of Culture of Death & Destruction
|
| Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 8:56 pm Post subject: |
|
|
OK, if youy look caucasian, that's good for you. No one has to know that you are half Arab. For all anyone knows, you could be a white American who converted to Islam, hence the Arab name. I don't think any place you apply to is going to ask you how/why you have an Arab name, and if you were born American, and if you are caucasian or not.
IF YOU LOOK CAUCASIAN, employers will assume you are a white American who reverted/converted to Islam. And so benefits-wise, that works in your favour, because no one will come to know you are half Arab and a naturalized American.
As for salaries, there is a wide range at different universities. The highest-paying universities/colleges pay double of the lowest paying ones, so the gap is wide. But at American/British schools, you can expect about 10,000-12,000 for sure. (assuming you get the teacher certification, and have at least 5-7 years experience teaching at schools)
Good luck. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
supplendary
Joined: 27 Jan 2007
Posts: 11
Location: Florida, USA
|
| Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 9:56 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| trapezius wrote: |
IF YOU LOOK CAUCASIAN, employers will assume you are a white American who reverted/converted to Islam. And so benefits-wise, that works in your favour, because no one will come to know you are half Arab and a naturalized American.
Good luck. |
Ha! I actually am a convert. We were raised Catholic, but I converted. I'm the only Muslim in my family, and I don't speak a word of Arabic except for the usual islamic lingo and prayers, so maybe there is a chance that they will think that I am a convert after all.
Thanks everyone for all the info. I think it wouldn't hurt to get my teaching certification while I finish my M.A. since it is pretty easy to get with what I already have. Maybe I'll take a trip to Saudi before deciding whether I should go for a PhD.
Thanks everyone for your responses! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Stephen Jones
Joined: 21 Feb 2003
Posts: 4124
|
| Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 12:30 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| and even those with western passports may get paid less if they are originally from another country. |
I have never come across or heard of a single case of this happening. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
supplendary
Joined: 27 Jan 2007
Posts: 11
Location: Florida, USA
|
| Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 12:44 am Post subject: |
|
|
Well, I hope that is not the case, but I got this impression in a thread back in February titled "Female teachers in KSA?" This was posted:
| 007 wrote: |
| Vs wrote: |
| Slavery too has different ranks |
So, Vs, can we say that the slavery ranks in ME are as follow (according to UNISCO convention of slavery):
American = Slave with 5*
British = Slave with 4*
Canadian/Australian = Slave with 3*
Arab (with Us/Brtish passport) = Slave with 2*
Indian, Pakistani, Philipino (with US/british pasport) = Slave with 1*
Others = Slaves wihout * (not classified yet under UNISCO convention of slavery!!)  |
I know it didn't specify that people would get paid according to their "ranks" - I just inferred it. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
veiledsentiments
Joined: 20 Feb 2003
Posts: 17644
Location: USA
|
| Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 1:05 am Post subject: |
|
|
It is best not to pay too much attention to the ramblings of 007. As usual he had missed the point of the preceding comment and segued into his odd idea of humor... which often isn't either funny or helpful.
Reality depends on nationality/passport, education and experience - with various exceptions..., so this breakdown is merely an estimate...
VS |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
This page is maintained by the one and only Dave Sperling.
Contact Dave's ESL Cafe
Copyright © 2018 Dave Sperling. All Rights Reserved.
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
