Job Discussion Forums

[Mei Sheng]

Holier than thou?

Bear Canada said Americans have such a view. Why just Americans?

Look in the mirror.

Based on what I've read here, you have a lot of self-examing to do.

BC - "I would have no more patience than you, for students who sleep in class or play video games on their mobile phones, or who don't study because their parents' money will guarantee a pass. But I've never had those experiences. My students don't do that."

Where are you in China?

Are you in China?

[bearcanada]

I don't think I understand the above post. As I pointed out earlier, I don't have the problems with students sleeping in class or otherwise goofing off because I'm not in the school system. I teach young adults in a corporate environment, and this is one of the reasons I chose to do that.

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[kev7161]

You may have stated that earlier BearCanada but I don't want to go back and read all the lengthy posts. However, how can you NOT teach in the system and yet make these all-encompassing statements about how we FTs need to be more sympathetic and understanding of why students can't be bothered to participate, respond, talk, or even show the remotest of interest when they attend our classes? The fact is, FTs are different. We are "special". We should be asking the students to adjust their way of thinking and their way of learning. Otherwise, why have FTs in the first place? Granted, we do need to understand many of the students' 12 hour school days and the constant pressure of testing and the pressure of getting into a good college, etc. I will never argue against that. But how many "Spoken English" teachers out there pile on a heap of homework and assignments to their charges every day? I'm going to go out on a limb and say probably very few. No, most "Spoken English" teachers probably have little to no homework and mostly just ask/hope the students will at least participate and try their best at a little English while in the classroom. I'd also hazard a guess that many FTs try to make their classes a little more relaxed and laid back than your typical Chinese class. This could be a detriment to the teacher, but I'd think (if I were a student) I'd actually look forward to going to a class like this and singing songs or playing games or watching a DVD or having a chance to move around the classroom instead of being firmly planted in my chair for an hour or two. I think I'd appreciate being given the chance to flex my creative wings by trying my hand at writing and performing a short scene with my classmates, trying to amuse and entertain the others.

But, again, I'm 46, so what I'd enjoy certainly cannot mirror your average 15 to 24 year old. I guess though, is that FTs need to be flexible and understand the struggles of typical Chinese students, but the Chinese students also need to be more giving when it comes to these "special" FTs they have in their schools. I had a high school class a couple years back where about 1/3 of the students were fun and interested and eager to learn/participate. The rest (all boys) wanted to talk during the lessons and activities or sleep or try to play with their (outlawed) mobile phones. Once I told those boys they didn't have to come to class, everything was great. The few students and I had some wonderful meetings. Once the school discovered these other boys weren't coming to my classroom and forced them back, everything was chaos again and it turned into a "movie appreciation" course, because I wasn't going to fight with these spoiled, surly students. It really does go both ways.

[bearcanada]

Kevin, thank you for the post. I agree with everything you say. I understand your position and I truly do sympathise. I am fortunate to be sheltered from the troubles that you describe and, to be honest, your patience surprises me. I would have more difficulty than you in dealing with the spoiled and surly students; I'm quite sure I wouldn't be as tolerant as you seem to be.

I wasn't suggesting sympathy, or even 'understanding' for these students. That kind of behavior doesn't require understanding; more likely a swift kick. My original comments were intended only for the apparent inability of students to participate properly in conversation or writing assignments due to a lack of life experience and other infrastructural handicaps. And a basic assumption here was that the students would participate if they were able. It was for this that I suggested a broader understanding on our part might help us to overcome.

For the rest of it, I have no doubt you're doing a better job than I would do in the same situation.

.Cheers

[Silent Shadow]

The hugely materialistic culture prevalant in China is also a major cause of the apathetic attitude towards anything that falls outside of the immediate circle of the average Chinese person.

This I feel was typified when the juniors in my college class this morning almost to a man stated that they would not want to be Spiderman. To be Spiderman would be too tiresome and dangerous. Imagine that! Even if they had the powers, they would not use them, they said, at least not in the heroic way Spiderman did.

Mind you, I'm living in one of the most developed parts of China and most of the parents of these students have a bob or two. There seems to be an almost total scorn for the poor Peter Parker (John Jamieson is much preferred as a boyfriend or husband, because he's rich and doesn't waste his time in futile efforts trying to help others). Sorry you have to have seen the movie to understand what I'm talking about. Ok, many Westerners will probably think the same way. However the thoughts of my students really brought home to me how much of a "ME! ME! ME!"culture there is in China. Sod helping others and doing the noble thing, just try to acquire as much money as you can get, (often by any means you can) and sod everything else.

Short-term thinking dominates in China. Screw the customer for a bob or two. It doesn't matter if he doesn't come back again, there will soon be another silly muggins along in a minute or two, who we can take for a ride. The vast majority of students study for only ONE reason: TO PASS EXAMS!
Pass your exams, get your degree, become a business man, and make lots of MONEY!! Oops! I stand corrected that's not one thing that's FOUR things! Also that is not short-term thinking. IT IS long-term thinking! Yes they do have a bit of patience, and can wait a bit of time for financial rewards. Chinese people like what is TANGIBLE! Tell a student to read a chapter in a book, and to afterwards explain the essence of it and the main ideas to you, telling them that the benefit will be a sharper, abler mind which they could use to great effect in the future, and you'd probably get a half-hearted effort at best. Tell them instead though that the reward is an immediate payment of 500 yuan and you will get a better critical analysis than Einstein and Clinton could produce together in their primes.

If no short-term reward is offered, generally activities have to be either, very exciting, severely dumbed down, or sugar-coated if you want students to make a decent effort.

I'm not saying that you can't get students motivated to work here. I have been fairly successful in getting my students to work for more intangible rewards ie: Practical skills, knowledge, long-term goals that don't just involve heaps of money and the satisfaction of learning new things for it's own sake, but:




It's BLOODY HARD!!

Some people think it's not worth it. I understand that. It depends on how much you care. I care about doing a good job. I agree with Nemesis, though. I'm not on a crusade to save the "poor" children of China. I'm here to do a job. A job I really enjoy and derive great satisfaction from. I try to do it to the best of my ability. I'm not on a mission, though.

Sometimes, I think I'm being too hard on my old lover, China. We've been together five years now. We're at that point in our relationship where I feel we can be honest with each other. Sometimes I love her, and sometimes I hate her, but...

I keep coming back for more.

As long as we're honest with each other the relationship will survive.

Take heart fellow teachers! If you can teach in China, you can teach anywhere! That's all for now folks. I'm up to my neck in mid-terms, argument papers and the like.

[bearcanada]

Shadow, I think your assessment is correct in terms of what you're seeing, but we have to be careful in the way we interpret what we observe. In an earlier post I referred to an article titled, "What is it like to be a bat?", in which the author said it is one thing for us to imagine what it might be like for US to be a bat, but quite another to imagine what it is like for A BAT to be a bat.

That is the problem we have here. Your observations are accurate but I see too many of us interpreting these in terms of what it would mean if WE were to have these attitudes or behavior, and we can't do that.

As an example, think of the feelings you would have if you butted your way through to the front of the line at a supermarket in your home country, and what that would mean in terms of the kind of person you are. But many Chinese do this, and they don't have those feelings that we would have, and our conclusions about 'the kind of people they are' would be very incorrect.

We have been taught from two years old to never cause inconvenience to others, to always think of others first, so if we disobey these precepts our behavior carries an unpleasant aura. But these people have never had these precepts. So we cannot judge them for disobeying rules that they have never been given. That's where we go wrong - we judge them by our standards, by what we have been taught - but they don't have that background.

You're correct about the 'ME' attitude, no question. If you and I were to behave that way, people would think we were selfish, arrogant..... But the Chinese, while they do these things, do not act from the motives we would have if we were to do them. We need to understand this, and appreciate what it means for the classroom.

For an example, you and I laugh when something is funny, or maybe to mock someone (laugh at them), but in some cultures (including parts of China) people laugh when they are embarrassed or ashamed. So you scold a student for poor behavior and he laughs. If you and I were to do that, it would be a gross insult to a teacher, but for some cultures it's not an insult. It's a more or less 'proper' response to our having done something stupid and having that brought out into the open.

Many children in China do indeed study only to pass exams, specifically the university entrance exam. The entire purpose of their first 20 years of existence is to get as high a mark as possible in that exam and to get into the best university possible because that will produce the best job with the highest salary, and a good life. It's all about that.

During this initial period, the children do little or nothing else but esentially cram for that exam. They learn from the time they are two years old that this is the most important thing in their lives. And during this time, they are spared everything else. Their mothers and family will do everything for them, from cleaning their rooms to wiping their noses.

And since they are often the only child, this is the great hope of the family so they are given an unwarranted amount of attention. The Chinese often speak of 6 people raising (and spoiling) one child - two sets of grandparents and the parents. The child is almost adored, given almost anything but pushed to focus only on his studies.

These children - the last generation were bad and the new generation (the xiao huangdi) are worse. They grow up needing to think only of themselves. They aren't taught to be selfish, exactly, but the environment produces that result and they become the "ME" generation as you have described. And they behave accordingly.

THe materialism that appears prevalent stems from the same root. The parents all grew up in a time when nobody was rich, or could be rich. But now times have changed and these children are in the middle of it, so the parents (for whom it is too late) want their children to share in the riches. And they can do that only by scoring a high mark, getting to a good university and then a great job. Winning isn't everything; it's the only thing.

In some large part, that's where the apparent attitude of apathy comes from. They have a very fixed set of ideas about what is important and useful in their lives, and they live according to it, but that set is different from ours. So we try to push knowledge or attitudes on them that are important to us and that we think should be important to them. And we fail miserably. We don't connect.

"The oxen of the field look on the deer of the forest as stray and vagrant things." It's like that. I don't offer this as a direct analogy, but oxen will have a devil of a time trying to keep order in a deer classroom, and the deer will not want to learn most of what the oxen want to teach. This may seem too obvious to state, but the reason is NOT that they are bad animals; it's just that they are NOT oxen - they're deer. If we want their attention we must teach them deer things. We cannot do what some posters here suggest, and tell the deer they must learn to see things from the oxen point of view. It won't happen, because after they leave oxen school they'll return to the forest; they won't live on a farm.

You are absolutely correct about the short-term time horizon too. It is astonishing to see adults sacrifice (or destroy) huge long-term value for the sake of a small short-term benefit, but that is visible everywhere in China. Even the theives will steal 1,000 yuan from you today instead of holding out for 10,000 tomorrow. This attitude stems in large part from the same source as the qualities above.

You and I have a lot of faith in the future. As Mr. Spock once said, "There are always possibilities.", and we function accordingly. The Chinese have largely grown up in an environment that didn't produce that kind of faith, so the thinking becomes much more short-term and immediate.

Another result of the upbringing is that the virtual absence of life experiences means that these young people don't know how to think about things that may be simple and trivial to us. Changing jobs, for example. I know many young adults who change jobs with some frequency only because they had a chance for a bit more immediate pay. No other reason. Not only did they not consider their longer-term careers in these decisions, they DON'T KNOW HOW to think about doing that. They have never been given a frame of reference for this kind of decision-making. They don't know how to think about things - about finding a girlfriend, about buying clothes, about wearing makeup, about ......

Because they have spent all their early years cramming for one exam and spared effort of every other kind, they are totally unprepared to deal with their world. At 28 years of age, they are still children. Think about that.

I have a friend in Nanjing who has a boy 9 years old; they come to visit me sometimes. Once, I asked the kid if he wanted an apple. Do you know what he did? He just turned silently and sat there, looking at his mother. "Do I want an apple, or don't I?" It didn't even occur to him to think for himself. Every decision has been made for him from the time he was a baby. The next time, I didn't let him get away with that, and I pushed him on it. I turned his head around and told him not to look at his mother but at me, and to decide for himself. His eyes were vacant and his mind was blank. He had no criteria for making a decision.

I think that child is an extreme case, but I see evidence of this everywhere. I have friends with 13-year-old sons who will hold mommy's hand the entire day when we're out shopping. If you and I had done this at that age, our friends would have laughed so hard we would have had to change schools. But here, children are made to remain children and mommy makes the decisions. Go to a campus on university registration day and you might see parents and grandparents registering the student while the kid stands in a corner having no idea what is going on. These kids are ill-prepared for what awaits them.

You might be interested to know that Sony has had great success in molding and retaining Chinese staff by holding courses on 'how to think about things'. Things like buying clothes, how to think about makeup and about applying it, how to think about making friends, about food and nutrition, about dozens of small topics that seem obvious and trivial to us but are valued by these young Chinese people. Is it possible that our classrooms could benefit from some of this?

In a class discussion, I recently had a young woman of 26 tell me that her way of thinking about finding a boyfriend was that she would avoid any boy who was good-looking. She was quite pretty and lively, but someone had told her that handsome men couldn't be trusted and she obeyed that precept because it was all she had. Her mother had had no experience and had nothing to teach her; her friends knew as little as she, so she just held onto the one thing someone offered her.

In a class, drawing information from students about what they think and how they think, on a huge variety of small personal topics, can be useful. It helps us understand where these people are and where they have come from. That understanding is the key.

And once again, in deference to the points Kevin has made, I am not suggesting sympathy or even understanding for the surly, arrogant and apathetic little skunks that appear to populate some classrooms. My sympathies are for the nice people.

And lastly (and finally) you might be interested to know that all of my young adult students are SO interested in improving their English because they tell me that a high level of fluency will permit them to get a better job at 'at least twice' the level of salary they now earn. That's why they don't sleep in my classes. Is it possible that your students might be capable of absorbing the impact of this information, and appreciate that after they graduate it won't any longer be a high grade that will matter but an actual ability to converse and write fluently in English that will change their lives.

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[Silent Shadow]

Very good post, Bear.

It looks like we agree on most things. I can't argue with what you said, because you fairly accurately described how things are in China. However I think China has to expect a backlash as a result of their generally very narrow mindset. You might say they don't expect a backlash because they can't see that they're doing anything wrong. However, over the last few years China has been "flexing it's muscles", and more than entertaining hopes of being a main player on the international scene. Also there's been plenty of talk, certainly amongst my students, of China being the no. 1 superpower in the future.

Is it any wonder that there is often friction between the "Oxen" and the "Deer"? Do you think that it's any easier for Westerners or others to suddenly change their mindset on arrival in China? OK, if you want to cheat, plaigiarize, and bribe your way through life, without a care for ethics, fairness, professionalism and honour then don't keep boosting about what a great country you have or will have. If the only dishonor in your country is to be poor, then don't tell me how racially superior you think Chinese people are. Bullshit!

Bear, this is not directed at you by the way. I respect your enlightened, and understanding posts. I guess it's a bit of a rant at China! I've been teaching in public schools up and down the country for five years now, and I guess I'm a little jaded. I understand your point about meeting keen professionals in your classes who are highly motivated. I previously taught in a private chain school in Beijing. I had students similar to those that you have, and thought it was a refreshing change to not have to worry about such things as discipline, motivation, and class management etc. It's a different ball game in public schools, though.

That's not to say that all public schools have poor quality students. If you do your homework you can find good public schools that have for the most part, motivated students. The college I teach at, at present, is quite good, but I often feel more like a football coach who has to keep geeing up his players to keep them on track. On average about 20% of students are highly motivated and will study anyway. Another 60-70% are moderately motivated, while 10 or 20% are not really interested at all.

With a good management system, a determined approach, and a well-structured curriculum, I can get the majority of students to focus and do their work well. Though, as I mentioned before it's not easy. That's where coaching skills are needed. In most middle and elementary schools in China the FTs class hardly matters an iota, because there is very rarely any mark needed to attain to, or even an exam to pass. That is where you really see the result of the little emperor/emperess syndrome.

Week after week, lesson after lesson you come face to face with row after row of half-dead, jaded (often even burnt-out), young children who are programmed as you basically said, yourself, to have their minds on just ONE THING. Now, do you think that many of them view that funny looking specimen at the front of the class, that makes strange noises as anything more than a novelty? Of course it's understandable if the students view it as a rest class, but whilst in the throes of bedlam, your average FT will often find it hard to appreciate that fact.

The very narrow mindset you mentioned is often the very reason why many FTs end up trying to cope with bored, disinterested kids who often forget to bring anything to class except their mobile phone, and the latest copy of their teen magazine. Yes, those surly, unmotivated, sleeping students are a direct result of the "All that matters is mammon" culture, that pervades in the big "C". Can't you see that it's breeding apathy in the classroom? Not your classroom of course. In YOUR case you see the opposite effects, because your students can NOW see the benefits of good English skills, because their eyes have been opened a little. Unfortunately many of those in public schools are blind to this, so...

Anyway, as I said, I enjoy reading your posts and respect your positive and understanding attitude. Just remember though, that the Chinese mindset that we,ve been discussing often brings about completely different results and attitudes in a public school classroom.

[bearcanada]

Shadow, I loved reading your post; thank you for taking the time to make it.

I think your job is much more difficult than mine, and I admire people like you who teach in the school system and have to adapt to the kinds of difficulties you describe. I have no doubt the descriptions are accurate. And of course, we cannot fully adapt and adopt the same mindset.

Your comment about a backlash is interesting; I don't know how to think about that at the moment but you may be correct. Certainly the Chinese are doing some adapting themselves, trying to absorb things from the West that they can use in a profitable way, sometimes better than we do it ourselves. But where this leads in the long run, I can't see.

I'm sure that you and many like you try very hard every day to do a creditable job while tolerating unacceptable behavior from those above and those below. I understand what you say about being jaded, and the discouragement at times must be substantial. I'm fortunate to be able to avoid most of that. Compared to you, I think I have a free ride. I would be tempted to recommend that the good teachers all find corporate jobs and get rid of all the stress, but the truth is this country needs people like you much more than it needs people like me. Almost anyone could do my job but not everyone could do yours.

All the best.

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[arioch36]

[bearcanada]

Arioch, I sympathise with your comments, but I'm not sure we're on the same page here. I couldn't agree more that students have an obligation to pay attention, to stay awake, to stay off the cell phones, to not cheat, to ............. I think every student has those obligations in every classroom in any country.

My comments referred to them adapting to our culture and living and behaving like Westerners with Western mindsets, mores, and our cultural and social standards. It's that, that they don't have to do. For sure they want to learn about us and our countries, but they aren't there to be reprogrammed into Aussies or Americans. That's all.

Perhaps my intent wasn't entirely clear; if so, I apologise.

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[arioch36]

BC

[kev7161]

Let's say your typical foreign teacher teaches a high school or college "spoken English" class once or twice a week per group of students. Now, the OP's main assertion (which may have gotten lost over the several posts) is that a main reason students can't or won't speak up or participate in class is because they, essentially, don't have the means to. Their lives in China in no way compares to life in western societies. From the time they started kindergarten at age 4 to their present age or 17 or 18 or 19 or 20, they have been ensconsed in an oppressive school system where all they do is study, study, sleep, and study. I know I'm putting a sarcastic twist on it, but that is the gist of what I'm getting.

Let's say that aforementioned FT wants to do a month's worth of "spoken" topics on pop culture. Let's say he or she wants to compare, I don't know, western boy bands of the 90s to several Chinese boy bands that are SO very popular around here. Is it the conceit of the OP to say that most Chinese students don't have an inkling who the Backstreet Boys, N'Sync, 98 Degrees (geez, why do I know these names?) are? Let's say the next week the FT wants to compare Chinese martial art action movies to western movies such as Spider-Man or any of the other multitude of superhero movies currently being churned out. Is it the conceit of the OP to say that most students have not visited a DVD store and taken an hour or two off from their oppressive school schedule to enjoy a DVD or three? Let's say the FT wants to compare fashions, foods, leisure time activities, sports (NBA!), etc. etc. These are typical teenage interests and, even if they don't have a clue about what goes on in your average western country when it comes to these things, they surely have their own ideas and interest in the Chinese side of the topics.

Any halfway decent "Spoken English" teacher can bring in magazines, pictures, power point presentations, etc. and "educate" their charges about the western ways in these common topics and their Chinese students should have enough knowledge in this modern, internet world to have some sort of veiwpoint, some sort of opinion or feedback on whatever is being *ahem!* discussed in class. But the OP's assertion is that many of these students DON'T have the advantage when it comes to knowing about the world around them and that's where I've disagreed from the beginning. It's not that it's the FT's job to force the Chinese student to change his or her lifestyle and way of thinking, it's mainly a way to get them to actually open their mouth and speak for chrissakes! And that's where a lot of the posters on this thread are ganging up on the OP. He's saying, again essentially, that so many students simply don't have the mindset to speak about things that we find so common, most of us are saying they simply don't want to for whatever unfathomable reason that we may never discern.

I say your typical, average Chinese student has the awareness of a lot of western things: pop culture, foods, fashion, sports . . . that an FT should be able to cobble up some mildly interesting lesson topics and expect some responses from the class. Find a halfway decent textbook series and the other half of the class can be used to teach enunciation and pronunciation and simple sentences. But if your average Chinese student continues to be resistance to even making an attempt, well, I don't feel an ounce of pity for their miserable, over-educated (often pampered) lives.

[arioch36]

[arioch36]

[bearcanada]

Made a mistake. Post edited. Thanks.

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