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The Great Wall of Whiner
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Posts: 4946
Location: Blabbing
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 Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 4:22 am Post subject: |
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| arioch36 wrote: |
Piston
In my many years here (you can see my posts and when I joined) I have been personally asked how by a waishiban how to write something, or to write something positive for the school, being offered up to 5,000 for each recruit. |
You're not alone. I, too, have been offered money.
As for the low wages in universities and colleges, I know the answer. I was told many times by close Chinese friends the following:
- Most universities get a set amount to hire X number of foreigners each budget. Let's say 8000 RMB a month for each one. Simple. Pay him/her 4000-5000 and pocket the rest. Claim on expenses that the foreigner was in fact paid 8000 a month. No one is the wiser.
- Most of the upper echelons do not know English, and do not know what has been offered the foreigner. They are told it's 8000 RMB monthly or whatever for a 'good teacher' and budget accordingly. The money is given to the English-speaking yoo-hoo, who in turn takes his/her fine cut. |
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vikuk
Joined: 23 May 2007
Posts: 1842
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| Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 5:00 am Post subject: |
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As for the low wages in universities and colleges, I know the answer. I was told many times by close Chinese friends the following:
- Most universities get a set amount to hire X number of foreigners each budget. Let's say 8000 RMB a month for each one. Simple. Pay him/her 4000-5000 and pocket the rest. Claim on expenses that the foreigner was in fact paid 8000 a month. No one is the wiser.
- Most of the upper echelons do not know English, and do not know what has been offered the foreigner. They are told it's 8000 RMB monthly or whatever for a 'good teacher' and budget accordingly. The money is given to the English-speaking yoo-hoo, who in turn takes his/her fine cut |
If this theory was correct - and from my own personal dealings in "China business" it looks a typical local "cook the books" way of making an extra buck - then don't the book cookers have an easy time of it 
After all those airy-fairy types - who seem to think, stuff like, free Tai Chi lessons are the essence of spiffing foreign adventure (at least essence enough for accepting a crud wage) - are always at hand.
And those of us who use our martial arts to fight for better pay - well since we're not good for the local Buick business - we're only welcome if we keep our wage demands more inline with the "Woweeeeee look everyone I'm in China mob"
From what we've read so far in this thread - GNU looks a typical low paying, let's make money out of the cheap FT, type set-up  |
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OGFT
Joined: 24 Jun 2006
Posts: 432
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| Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 10:54 am Post subject: |
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| The fact is, many posters here want the poster to back up what he says |
Word! |
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Teatime of Soul
Joined: 12 Apr 2007
Posts: 905
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| Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 12:35 pm Post subject: |
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After all those airy-fairy types - who seem to think, stuff like, free Tai Chi lessons are the essence of spiffing foreign adventure (at least essence enough for accepting a crud wage) - are always at hand.
And those of us who use our martial arts to fight for better pay - well since we're not good for the local Buick business - we're only welcome if we keep our wage demands more inline with the "Woweeeeee look everyone I'm in China mob" Laughing Laughing Laughing |
Have a lump or two - it'll take away some of that bitterness.
Cheers and sugar cubes to those who are satisfied with what they negotiated.
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vikuk
Joined: 23 May 2007
Posts: 1842
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| Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 1:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Cheers and sugar cubes to those who are satisfied with what they negotiated |
I say good luck to them as well - since there aint nothing stopping them in their flutter of excitement. In fact the only price I'm making them pay - is subjecting them to a mild dose of ridicule. But that isn't gonna cost them much - since most of these folk are pretty bullet proof when they're in one of their "ooooohhhgollllllyyy me lets play being Chineeese" euphoric states.
And a lot of these folk don't tend to be that long term - most of them are soon home to show Stan, Doris and the cat Chuckles their happy snaps.
"see there Stan that's MR. Dong - he said I could come back any time and bring a few of my friends with me"!!!
But enough of them - hey Teatime why do you reckon places like GNU pay such bad wages?????
After all one of the posters who has had GNU experience writes -
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| The UNIVERSITY is rich, though, judging by all the new devolopment that is going on there, not to mention all the Buicks that are being driven around by the leaders. |
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Sonnet
Joined: 10 Mar 2004
Posts: 235
Location: South of the river
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| Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 4:36 pm Post subject: |
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How much do you seriously think theseplaces are making?
Of my China experiences, the only place which made big profits was also the only place where the local management cheated staff. Local staff more than foreign, it must be added.
Otherwise; learning English isn't all that serious a concern here. If it were, we'd all be making 30k plus. But, it isn't. If you kid yourself that what you're actually doing is of critical importance, then,well, you're truly kidding yourself. I work for a reasonably successful private school. We're looking to change location to somewhere more central within our city. Can't be done at the moment; the new rent would be 5x what we currently pay, and couldn't be covered without major price hikes.
Oh, and referring to a prior point; if a school allocated 8k/month for an FT, then a 5k/month net wage would make sense. Where does the other 3k go?Maybe not into someone's pocket, but rather into paperwork/airfare/accomodation/tax/welfare costs, which the FT enjoys the benefits of, but never sees in cold, hard cash.
I won't deny that there are, as in every other EFL market, some truly nasty, selfish, unscrupulous types running operations in China; however, there are also numerous places which are a darned sight fairer on their teachers. |
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The Great Wall of Whiner
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Posts: 4946
Location: Blabbing
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| Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 11:01 pm Post subject: |
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Sonnet, I should point out that I have in the past worked for EF, and rather enjoyed my treatment there. I found it fair and even-handed.
Having said that, from what I have heard, I was lucky.
But I am not talking about private institutes or bushibans. I'm talking about public or semi-publicly run schools, including primary and middle schools.
These schools are allowed a certain amount of money to hire foreign experts. They are not allowed under law to charge extra money from students in most jurisdictions any longer.
Also, and this has been drilled into me by my own close Chinese friends, Chinese officials are always on the lookout for new and creative ways to make extra money. |
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vikuk
Joined: 23 May 2007
Posts: 1842
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| Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 11:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Also, and this has been drilled into me by my own close Chinese friends, Chinese officials are always on the lookout for new and creative ways to make extra money |
Ye olde Chinese wage expander of - over budget and underspend. |
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OGFT
Joined: 24 Jun 2006
Posts: 432
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| Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 1:51 am Post subject: |
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| Otherwise; learning English isn't all that serious a concern here |
If it were they would hire qualified teachers instead of degree bearing speakers.
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| These schools are allowed a certain amount of money to hire foreign experts. They are not allowed under law to charge extra money from students in most jurisdictions any longer. |
Law sez "never were", and much of the money to pay FTs waz collected every week in the 5 and 10 RMB amounts. |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 5:23 am Post subject: |
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| redpiston wrote: |
| The fact that Clark always post about positive comments and his refusal to concede that a school may actually post loaded comments for their well being makes me think that the Wall of Whinning is absolutely correct. |
Considering that I am part of a site that maintains a blacklist of schools as well as archiving both positive and negative comments about schools in China you are very wrong to suggest that I have some propensity for only positive comments about schools.
I have been a very vocal proponent of seeing teachers post about their experiences good or bad. I believe that teachers should stick to the facts when doing so and be able to support the claims that they make.
The big discrepancy that I have pointed out here is that there is an overwhelming attitude here that when someone posts something positive about a school they get accused of being in bed with the school - yet we NEVER see any proof from the accusers of this being the case.
I know for a fact that in my case I do not receive any money from any school or recruiter for my comments. Yet this does not stop many from suggesting otherwise when they find themselves unable to argue on other values. This is why I am so against these people - it's because in my case I know that you guys are so willing to call into question my motives incorrectly and without any proof to support your claims as there is none. If you can do it to me then I am sure that others are also the victims of this!
| redpiston wrote: |
| In fact this consent championing of these underpaid universities also make me think that some of the posters are employed by these Unis and that this board has connections to postings that disappear. |
Read my posts redpiston before you try to charcterize my opinions.
I have never championed any aspect of school wages. I merely state that if you are anyone else is not happy with the wages on offer then don't take the job. It is your right to seek higher wages elsewhere just the same as it is somebody elses right to take the job that you turn down at the wages on offer.
I have never understood why anyone would accept a job and agree to a certain wage and then come here and complain about it  If you are worth more then go out and get yourself a job that pays you more. Just because you think that you are worth more does not mean that you are however!!
So on the wages issue I do not support school offering but nor do I condemn them. If they were too low for any foreigners then no one would take the jobs. Supply and demand!
| arioch36 wrote: |
| Finally for today, Clark is wrong in his ,"Oh we bad teachers just want negative posts about schools here at Dave's" |
That is not what I am saying at all.
I am suggesting that we would ALL be better off if people felt welcomed to come and post about their experiences here - good or bad - and receive equal treatment for this. If anyone posts anything that seems factually incorrect then questions should be asked about those facts, but this continual questioning of people's motives without offering any legitimate support for these suspicions is just counter-productive.
We all want to know which are the good and bad schools so let's not discourage people from posting.
The case of the Yangen poster and that guy in Shanghai for two weeks are not even similar to what we are talking about here. Those two cases were clearly not legitimate comments and were treated with the mutual disdain from all parties that they deserved.
Overall though it is true that I don't join in the negative 'bashes' of school or recruiters as in most cases there is little substance to the comments made by those who join in the group bash. Why would I want to be party to that?
I join a discussion when I have something to offer or when I disagree with what someone else has offered.
In the case of legitimate negative comments about a legitimately bad school I would have nothing to offer other than 'Yes I agree with you mate' but what would be the point of that?
You are very wrong however to suggest that I never post negatively about schools or recruiters. I started on out on these forums doing exactly that in exposing bad schools and recruiters - I guess that I just matured  |
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vikuk
Joined: 23 May 2007
Posts: 1842
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| Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 5:38 am Post subject: |
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| Clark - do you have any idea why schools like GNU pay such a low FT wage??? |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 5:58 am Post subject: |
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| vikuk wrote: |
| Clark - do you have any idea why schools like GNU pay such a low FT wage??? |
You use the term 'low' whereas I think it is probably more correct to use the term 'standard'.
Whether you like it or not the fact remains that the standard wage for university positions remains RMB3,000-6,000 for anything from 12-20 hours per week.
If you think that this is too low for you then exercise your right not to work there, but don't begrudge those the right to work there if they choose to. |
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OGFT
Joined: 24 Jun 2006
Posts: 432
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| Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 7:27 am Post subject: |
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| Considering that I am part of a site that maintains a blacklist of schools as well as archiving both positive and negative comments about schools in China you are very wrong to suggest that I have some propensity for only positive comments about schools. |
It is your association with that site that makes you suspect. Instead of working on your own site, your on Dave's pitching. These are not the actions of someone who is neutral. You can come back with a page and a half of reasoning that only you will believe and claim to be the world's most honest information provider, but that alone does not mean anyone swallows that cr ap. YOu are a provider who troll these forums and drums up business. |
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vikuk
Joined: 23 May 2007
Posts: 1842
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| Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 7:54 am Post subject: |
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| You use the term 'low' whereas I think it is probably more correct to use the term 'standard' |
well I suppose, when you look at salaries of other China Ft jobs on a per-hour basis, this low standard - can actually make some common China FT jobs look very substandard!!!
Just take those mills like Aston and EF - paying their workers around the 6000 mark - but sometimes requiring 40hours/week of work (remember some of these joints require office hours and maybe a lot of extra marketing hours). Also weekend and evening work is a norm at these places - which is OK - unless you enjoy spending your weekends and evenings socalising with the rest of the ex-pat crowd.
I do suppose in this kind of light - when compaired to the EF's and Astons of China - GNU looks an OK workplace.
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| If you think that this is too low for you then exercise your right not to work there, but don't begrudge those the right to work there if they choose to. |
By the way just by using the term standard - implies something that affects us all since, we all operate and are affected as FT's, one way or the other, by the standards found in this market. So after almost 5 years as a China FT please don't begrudge me the right to speak out about those things that affect my daily life and profession - after all this forum is not just about recruiting new FT's - but also to share the opinions of those who actually work here as FT's. With respect to sharing info on China FT wages - it does look as if I'm not the only poster who thinks they're a load of crap, and maybe a possible root reason why FT teaching standards, within China, seem to be so low |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 1:57 pm Post subject: |
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Oops. I unintentionally deleted this post while writing my new one.
Last edited by clark.w.griswald on Mon Nov 12, 2007 11:53 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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