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vikuk
Joined: 23 May 2007
Posts: 1842
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 Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 2:40 pm Post subject: |
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| If you have been teaching here for 5 years and have not yet reached a stage where you are earning an amount that you feel that you deserve to be earning then perhaps there is a problem your end. From my understanding you are a qualified teacher and you now have 5 years teaching experience here so why is it that you do not have one of those plumb jobs that most of us tend to find after a few years on the ground in China? Perhaps this is the real reason that you are so wage sensitive rather than your suggestion that you are just looking out for rights of others |
This isn't about me - or any plumb job/lifestyle I may or may not hold 
Me being rich or poor has very little affect on the overall picture of that which goes on in the substandard workplace of EFL China - whether that workplace be GNU, Aston or EF.
For me the type of issues discussed in this thread are related to professional principles - and workers fighting for decent standards. And although we have no organised way of achieving goals - going into this game with the blinkers off and knowing a little more about what goes on in this industry - gives me for one that feeling of having a little more personal pride than if I were just to play the cheap dumb dancing FT monkey game - a game that all China FT's know so well.
For other posters the interest seems more recruiting related  |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 11:54 pm Post subject: |
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| vikuk wrote: |
| So after almost 5 years as a China FT please don't begrudge me the right to speak out about those things that affect my daily life and profession |
| vikuk wrote: |
| This isn't about me - or any plumb job/lifestyle I may or may not hold |
Two very conflicting statements here vikuk! It probably would have been more productive to have answered my question in the second post that related to the first rather than backtracking like this.
| vikuk wrote: |
| For me the type of issues discussed in this thread are related to professional principles - and workers fighting for decent standards. And although we have no organised way of achieving goals |
Perhaps the reason that you don't get paid more is that you are not seen to be worth more. Again this is not meant to be a personal slight on you but more a recognition of the facts.
What have you personally done over the last five years to improve your wage position other than come here and complain about it that is?
I mean clearly for anyone to get a higher wage than they are paid now they need to:
a. be worth the higher wage;
b. be able to justify that higher wage based upon the market;
b. and most importantly go out and get that higher wage as it is certainly not going to come to you no matter how much you whinge about it and how many emoticons you may use
The reality is that the market salary rate for foreign English teachers in China is around RMB3,000-6,000. There are jobs out there that pay less but they are pretty few these days. And there are jobs out there that pay more and these are growing in number slowly. Someone is taking those higher paying jobs and my guess is that it is not those who are complaining about low wages here, they are the ones who get out and find this work.
But I would be interested in your solution to this problem vikuk. In your opinion the market rate is too low. Fair enough. So what are you going to help us all do about that? |
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OGFT
Joined: 24 Jun 2006
Posts: 432
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| Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 1:54 am Post subject: |
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| Perhaps the reason that you don't get paid more is that you are not seen to be worth more. Again this is not meant to be a personal slight on you but more a recognition of the facts |
When using the word "perhaps" and "facts" in the same sentence, are you not recognizing that this is not a fact.
| Quote: |
| The reality is that the market salary rate for foreign English teachers in China is around RMB3,000-6,000. |
Is this another "fact" or perhaps a figment of your design. |
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vikuk
Joined: 23 May 2007
Posts: 1842
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| Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 4:52 am Post subject: |
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I suppose one of the reasons that many are writing here to complain about the poor working conditions found in the average EFL job has something to do with those concepts of exploitation, professional ignorance and sub-standard quality of service. These are the kind of things that get a lot of people to stand up and ask questions with regard to a lot of workplaces - and here they are being used as discussion point regarding general standards within China EFL.
However it looks like the argument is being swung round to a personal level - and if people are convinced that I'm writing my posts out of personal bitterness - then I don�t mind - because being exploited, being made to dance around like a performing monkey, being employed as an FT but not being taking seriously in the role of teacher, finding that folk will undercut your wage, being allowed into a classroom with almost zero training and equipment - can be kind of nasty personal experiences - and that regardless of whether my own personal China experiences have been good or bad. Just read through the forums if you don�t believe me
So the main question isn't who and what I am - but is more focused on the fact that working in China is so often portraid, in these forums, as a crap occupation - something you endure to live in China. So if it were true that its only bitterness that brings out the negative poster � well there must be lot of bitter folk out here � which must tell those interested in coming to China a thing or two
However with regard to general standards - trying to make changes is a very difficult outside your own micro work environment - and even here it can be difficult.
But at least we have Dave�s to spread the message. If I have dissuaded just one person to take a job that I regard as substandard and poor � then I have executed a mini change!!!!
And ways of getting those wages up - well enough mini-changes could encorage a small push in the right direction , which could equate into -
Encouraging FT's to think of this job as a profession - and to negotiate the best wage � encouraging folk not only to think on a personal level but on one that takes general standards into account.
Of course an unrealistic pipedream � but at least a place to park a principle or two |
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arioch36
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 3589
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| Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 5:07 am Post subject: |
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griswald
The reality is that the market salary rate for foreign English teachers in China is around RMB3,000-6,000. |
Reality??? 3,000??? an LSD dark trip reality?
The 3,000 figure is truly ridiculous. I have some Christian friends here in henan, a poor province. Sometimes i get peeved with them for accepting lower wages. The lowest is 3,800. Even the Non-flluent blacks I know from Kenya ... they are making this amount. Of the hundred plus laowai I know in Henan, the very very lowest is 3,800 ... again, here in Henan... a poor province.
Again, I have to say it is only...only the laowai turned recruiter...and even then just the type of recruiter that recruits for any school, even though they have never been to such the schools, only such laowai use a figure like 3,000. Except Clark maintains that he is only advertising out of altruistic motives, and he and the site he advertises have no business relationship with the schools.
6,000 aint bad.
3,000???? market rate???? 3,000
recruiter who wants to make a lousy school sound good to a potential newbie.
Seven years in China... never heard of a person accepting 3,000
3,000???? Reality. That is simply not a truthful statement |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 9:29 am Post subject: |
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| OGFT wrote: |
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| Perhaps the reason that you don't get paid more is that you are not seen to be worth more. Again this is not meant to be a personal slight on you but more a recognition of the facts |
When using the word "perhaps" and "facts" in the same sentence, are you not recognizing that this is not a fact. |
In your eagerness to continue your personal attacks on my posts you seem to have overlooked the fact that what you have quoted is actually two sentences not one sentence. The period in the middle and capitalization of the first word in the second sentence being dead give away�s to even an average English teacher! 
OGT I have disagreed with you in the past. So what? That happens in life. Get over it and stop following me around on the forum will you unless you have something to offer the discussion.
| vikuk wrote: |
| I suppose one of the reasons that many are writing here to complain about the poor working conditions found in the average EFL job has something to do with those concepts of exploitation, professional ignorance and sub-standard quality of service. |
Who is being exploited?
We all choose to come to China - none of us are dragged here against our will.
We all choose our employers and in choosing them we are offered and accept a deal. No one is forced to work for an employer that he or she does not want to work for.
If you find that you are not given what was promised then take action.
If you find that you are not earning enough then again take action and either negotiate more or find yourself a position that is willing to offer you more.
The word exploitation suggests that you have no choice when in fact we foreign teachers all have choice in this matter.
| vikuk wrote: |
| However with regard to general standards - trying to make changes is a very difficult outside your own micro work environment - and even here it can be difficult. |
But this is pretty much my whole point here.
If you don't like the amount offered then don't take the job. If nobody else likes it either then no one will take the job and the employer will have to find a solution to his or her problem. If however someone else does take that job then that indicates that that person is happy so who are you to complain that the wage is too low. Too low for you maybe so move on to bigger and better things.
Vikuk no one is suggesting that wages in China for foreign teachers are wonderful. But that does not make them disasterous either. If people are happy taking jobs at 'X' wage then that is their right, just as it is yours to put your foot down on only accept jobs that offer 'Xx2'.
But is this moving away from the point of this thread. Gannan apparently pays RMB5,000 which puts them slightly above average which is why I question your earlier complaint that they pay too little.
Arioch, pretty pointless to concentrate on that lower level of the range that I gave. Kind of what I expect from certain posters on this forum though. Having said that there are a number of jobs that pay RMB3,000 a month which makes that still standard, even if not too many people are willing to put their hands up and agree that this is what they make. But as I mentioned in my earlier post there is a slow movement upwards fortunately and I would certainly agree that an average wage within that range would be RMB4,000-5,000. |
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Teatime of Soul
Joined: 12 Apr 2007
Posts: 905
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| Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 10:39 am Post subject: |
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| 1. City: Changchun China. 2. Salary: 4500��6800RMB plus the monthly bonus 100��500RMB. 3. Start date: September 1st 2006 till April 30th 2007. 4. Work schedule: 20 hours a week. 5. Students level: 3--17 years old students in the government school. 6. Airfare/Accommodations: Private apartment and round air tickets. We are seeking English teachers for Sino-Australia Jilin Eagle College (formerly Merry Foreign Language School) in Changchun City, China Requirements: - To be an English native speaker from Canada, America, Australia, New Zealand, or England. School: You will teach in the government schools and our own school in Changchun. School offer: We have 6-month, 10-month or 12-month agreement positions Salary: Basic 4000-6000RMB for 80 hours per month; Basic 2500-3000RMB for 60 hours per month. On completion of a 10- to 12-month contract, the school will reimburse you with the equivalent price of round airline tickets. Free private apartment. The apartment allowance is an extra 500--700RMB per month Monthly attendance bonuses will be paid upon completion of the contract. Monthly bonus is 100-500RMB. So, for 80 hours a month working, you can get the salary at least 4500��6800RMB with the monthly bonus 100--500RMB. Airport pickup in Changchun. Assistance in Chinese language learning. Two times free traveling during the year in Jilin province. We will provide a working permit and invitation letter to apply for a working visa. We will provide opportunities to interview local city and business officials and pundits for research purposes. To apply please send your detailed resume and a photo to [email protected] or [email protected] |
http://www.rong-chang.com/esljobs/esljobs19.html
Check it out; visas for nuthin' and pundits for free.
Hope this doesn't start another (ala TW vs. unqualified "dirty hippie") turf war over the position among those in negotiations.
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vikuk
Joined: 23 May 2007
Posts: 1842
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| Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 10:52 am Post subject: |
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| Vikuk no one is suggesting that wages in China for foreign teachers are wonderful. But that does not make them disasterous either. If people are happy taking jobs at 'X' wage then that is their right, just as it is yours to put your foot down on only accept jobs that offer 'Xx2' |
0hhhhh but they are wonderful for some folk The employers who can make an extra profit through the cheap labor. And the recruiters who are paid more for the cheaper they can find.
When these money hungry sharks are in the pool - them ol' standards seem to take a tumble. But maybe we should heed Clark's solution - bare it out for a few years and then you may be able to jump from the being exploited camp into that of the exploiters - I suppose that�s what�s meant by a plumb position. Welcome to the professional solidarity of being a China FT!!!!
And the GNU's of this world - what kind of standards do they operate - how many qualified FT's are teaching on that campus. At 5000/month not many under 60 years of age if any at all
By the way going back to the personal slant - even if I have a plumb FT position/life in china - I wouldn't be stupid enough sit back and let standards slide just because I felt myself as top of the pile - after all sooner or latter those falls in standards may catch up on me. But then again if I was involved in recruiting - those falling standards wouldn't bother me too much. After all if there's enough of the white stuff on the cheap - and the turnover rate is high - then why not enjoy the good business while it lasts.
Remember folks - the recruiter game is about getting 'em here - for them its bad business if the FT stays in the same job for more than one contract. After all a happy contented FT who wants to spend a few years at the same job hardly increases the business prospects for these folk  |
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Sonnet
Joined: 10 Mar 2004
Posts: 235
Location: South of the river
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| Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 5:41 pm Post subject: |
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I'd like to reiterate a point I made earlier,and hopefully drag this thread away from unprovoked ad-hominem attacks.
Do any of you actually know how much profit these "exploitative" institutions make? I don't know about public schools & colleges/universities, but I do know, for a fact, how tight the finances of a private school can be.
Does anyone actually know the bottom line? Or are you just making assumptions? "The boss drives around in a Buick" just doesn't cut it, I'm afraid. If you can provide anything further than anecdotal evidence, I'll concede this point. But almost all Chinese businesses I've known in any kind of detail about (two personally, and three or four, non-EFL related, through friends) have had absolutely ridiculously slim profit margins, or been in debt. A lot ofinstitutions out here aren't half as rich as you might think. |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 12:00 am Post subject: |
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Vikuk you keep throwing around that recruiter insinuation. Who here is a recruiter? I am not so what is the point of throwing that into discussions with me. I know that you use that �uncertainty� to try to undermine the reasoning behind my posts but since it does not apply to me nor does it undermine my position. If I am wrong then point out where I am wrong and explain why, stop interjecting irrelevant claims.
| vikuk wrote: |
| 0hhhhh but they are wonderful for some folk |
Who said that they were wonderful? I haven�t seen any one claim that. Being happy with a wage and thinking that a wage is wonderful are two different things. You claim that they are terrible but clearly most don�t agree with you as they accept them.
| vikuk wrote: |
| The employers who can make an extra profit through the cheap labor. |
There is nothing �cheap� about employing foreigners. As well know foreigners get paid much more than locals in equal positions � as we should as we incur more costs, experience more difficulties etc. Any school that wants to do things on the cheap would not hire foreigners from the accepted native English speaking countries that is for sure.
Vikuk, your whole argument seems based around the idea that the standard wage for foreign English teachers in China is actually a lot higher than what many employers actually pay. And that they elect to pay us a lot less to pad their own back pockets. So bring us the numbers to show this. I would think that for you to prove this you would need to show:
a. what the standard wage for foreign English teachers in China really is and that it is well above what these employers are paying. I have suggested RMB3,000-6,000 as being standard so what is your view;
b. that the money that they �save� goes to them personally. Yes I know there are lots of suspicions here and in some cases they may be warranted but on the whole I would like to see you prove this to be a reason that wages are where they are at
| vikuk wrote: |
| But maybe we should heed Clark's solution - bare it out for a few years and then you may be able to jump from the being exploited camp into that of the exploiters |
That is not what I am saying at all.
I am saying that in my opinion wages of RMB3,000-6,000 are standard here. If an employer pays within this range (depending upon the actual working hours of course) then they will believe that they are paying a fair wage. They are certainly paying a legal wage for foreigner experts working in China and in fact any school paying toward the top of that range is actually paying an above legal wage.
So the schools are paying a legal wage, a wage within the standard, and in their opinion a very high wage when they compare that to Chen Laoshi who is a locally decorated teacher who has been working there for 20 years and who is getting less than half what the recent grad from overseas is earning. I am not suggesting that we should be employed on local wages but I am pointing out that when you walk into the office of a school to complain about your wage you need to take that into account in your negotiations.
| vikuk wrote: |
| And the GNU's of this world - what kind of standards do they operate - how many qualified FT's are teaching on that campus. At 5000/month not many under 60 years of age if any at all |
RMB5,000 is a respectable wage within the standard and it is pretty offensive of you to suggest that there is a certain category of teacher among us who are �scabs� if you will. No matter what the age of the teacher, if an individual is happy with the deal offered then who are you to suggest that it is wrong of them to take it.
There are jobs out there that pay RMB8,000, RMB10,000 and even RMB15,000 at privately run language training schools and private mainstream schools. Those jobs are often under the radar but for anyone who has been here for a while they are obtainable if you have something to offer other than having been lucky enough to have been borne into a country that is accepted as being a native English speaking country. I am not so concerned about qualifications myself but more professionalism and dedication, and it seems to me that some of the people who whinge about how low wages are lack anything that an employer would look at and say �This guy is an asset to our company. We don�t want to lose him so we will accept his request for a pay increase�. Wage raises are not a given in any industry � you have to justify them.
Sonnet you make a good point about the specifics of the earnings but does it really matter? Most of us here are employees plain and simple � so our wages are fixed no matter how much nor how little our employers earn. This is the same as many positions back home. I would like to see someone on a fixed wage back home walk into their boss�s office after the yearly financials come out and demand more money based on the fact that the company is making more money even if you had no hand in those extra earnings. I am pretty sure what the reply would be! |
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chia48
Joined: 16 Oct 2007
Posts: 14
Location: Jiangsu
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 2:02 am Post subject: |
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" And the GNU's of this world - what kind of standards do they operate - how many qualified FT's are teaching on that campus.
At 5000/month not many under 60 years of age if any at all "
You really are an embittered, miserable soul aren't you? |
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vikuk
Joined: 23 May 2007
Posts: 1842
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 4:12 am Post subject: |
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| You really are an embittered, miserable soul aren't you? |
I think sonnet's call for a stop to ad hominem attack fell on deaf ears. Even if I were bitter - what has that to do with poor wage rates and unqualified elderly teachers working at GNU???? I think a mature way (funny using that concept with regard to the logic behind my age/hobby teacher argument) would be either to tell me that GNU employs a lot of well qualified, "non-retired" FT's at those 10,000 month wage levels - or that my observation was indeed correct
Actually the childish outburst in the last post makes me suspect the poster was angry, because they were in full agreement - and had no real argument to hit back with: idea:
As for this -
| Quote: |
| As well know foreigners get paid much more than locals in equal positions |
It looks like the arguments is going back to the ol' recruiting nutmeg of - its cheap in China - so grin an' bare them low wages.
Remember we�re not �equal� (equal as in teaching skills) in many ways to the ordinary local staff. The most important difference is that we have a unique native English knowledge - specialist teachers
Remember Chinese teachers who have some real hard to find specialist skill - can find jobs that have wage rates that equate to or often far exceed ours. So when you think of comparing the FT job to another Chinese teaching job - well think of these people.
Remember also that the wages of many groups in China - including these specialist teachers - have risen in the wake of both economic growth and inflationary pressure. While FT wages seem to have remained pretty much static!!!
As for me having to find evidence of FT employers - and I'm especially thinking here of the employers in the public sector (or those in private sector that have access to public funds - state/province aided private unis) who have traditionally cooked the books to make an extra buck. Well if anyone reading these forums - those of you who have knowledge of China - want to tell me that I'm horrible wrong then please go ahead - I'm waiting for the flack |
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SnoopBot
Joined: 21 Jun 2007
Posts: 740
Location: USA
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 4:26 am Post subject: |
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| arioch36 wrote: |
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| The standard deal at university jobs is around 5,000 rmb per month, plus housing, utilities, internet, return airfare, in exchange for 12-14 hours teaching a week. Teachers who agree to work in China under these conditions are not 'undercutting' anyone else's wages. |
I would definitely agree. unfortuantely 12 hours is becoming rarer and rarer (even though many Chinese teachers still just teach 6 or 8 at full pay). Now it seems 16-20 is what the uni is asking for. This is where the potential teacher needs to bargain, bargain, bargain.
5000 for 12 hours is good (though 4,800 with 200 extra for living expenses is better, no taxes). Probably about the same as I am getting more or less, and I have been here many years. Definitely not undercutting anyone. The other two important things I would look for are class size and apartment.
Any thing less then 3,800 for 12 4,800 for 18 I would consider undercutting ... but it also the average, i would sadly say, in many provinces. Especially bad if you are only getting paid the 10 months. As has been said often enough, too many willing to take this either because they just want the experience or come from countries currently much worse off.
6,000 for 12 hours at a decent uni ... I honestly would not usually believe
a few jobs I know like this, in some remote location covered with coal dust that no one wants to teach at. Shanghai and Bejing laowai don't make this usually |
My observations too. I could claim I teach 8 hours a week for 12,000 RMB a month because I'm special. Why lie? Every time I tell the truth someone seems to post that this isn't the typical wage and those that take these typical contracts are morons or uynqualified because just around the corner is that real job- they kind they always get offered.
18-20 hours a week, 5000-6500 is typical for most places and if in a dinky city the pay might be less.
90% of the ESL jobs are described as above REGARDLESS of Qualification and Experience. As I mentioned before you hit a certain point where qualifications and experience doesn't matter and if you demand too much they will find a Cheaper alternative.
Private positions are different to a certain extent, this is where the $ is, not teaching at the universities. |
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SnoopBot
Joined: 21 Jun 2007
Posts: 740
Location: USA
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 4:44 am Post subject: |
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| The Great Wall of Whiner wrote: |
| MGreen wrote: |
| In the West we do have 'normal' universities, we just don't use that name anymore-archaic. UCLA was a normal university when it was founded. It refers to teachers colleges, schools of education or faculty of education. I'm surprised your MA Linguistics friend didn't point that out to you. |
She did; however she also mentioned in the same sentence that native speakers of English from modern Western countries seldom use archaic terms.
Look folks, I am not saying the school is bad. All I'm pointing out is the same thing that SnoopBot saw, I am many others also saw. |
My first reaction was the same as yours. I have a MA in TESOL w/linguistics (A good TESOL MEd will combine the two)
I will be the first person to admit my writing stinks when I'm in a hurry and multi-tasking while posting. One thing Kepotts did was come back and defend his OP. Therefore, I give Kepotts the benefit of the doubt.
I find myself using Chinese phrases and wording because I spent a great deal of time with Chinese friends, students and my wife. I found myself expressing things in a Chinglish way out of habit.
Possibly this is the case in this matter. The most important point/lesson is how low this industry is with all the constant rip-offs and scams. We have all gotten to the point that we distrust any positive review with suspicion. I bet if this industry wasn't so full of crooks we wouldn't have this problem. |
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SnoopBot
Joined: 21 Jun 2007
Posts: 740
Location: USA
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 4:45 am Post subject: |
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delete double post
Last edited by SnoopBot on Wed Nov 14, 2007 5:52 am; edited 1 time in total |
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