Job Discussion Forums

[peepertice]

[SnoopBot]

[SnoopBot]

[chia48]

Excuse me. what other conclusion can one draw from the repeated scorn for university teachers shown in this thread. Many reasonable posts have pointed out that it is perfectly valid for individuals to choose to work in China in public post secondary institutions, at standard rates of pay. Why so much resentment? There is no logical basis for it. It has been noted elsewhere that relatively low wages make China unattractive to people in 'mid-career '. University jobs therefore are often taken by younger or older people, with their own personal goals - the work is interesting and rewarding, and there are additional benefits -- opportunities to travel, learn the language, understand the culture, etc.

Like many others I believe, I am enjoying my life and work in China as a university instructor. I am a well educated and qualified professional,
currently teaching European history to junior college students. I am satisfied with my working conditions.

Those who find their situations unsatisfactory should make some effort to solve their own problems, in my opinion, and to respect all others using this forum.

[vikuk]

Again accusation of bitterness, which I can actualy understand.
After all if one read Snoopies comments -

"90% of the ESL jobs are described as above REGARDLESS of Qualification and Experience. As I mentioned before you hit a certain point where qualifications and experience doesn't matter and if you demand too much they will find a Cheaper alternative." (I'm on a mirror site so I can't use the quote function)

And you suddenly suspected that you met the criteria of "cheaper alternative" - then I suppose a little anger venting could be expected

[Teatime of Soul]

The Straw man = Wages are too low.

Wages are what the market decides. Everybody here negotiated exactly what they are worth, and if that hurts, don't point to....

The Red Herring = School Owners Make Too Much

It's a business. They are in it for a profit. Just like your old bosses back home. Or did you resent them too?


Here's an idea. Open your own school and advertise here for teachers. Remember, pay no less than 250 RMB per hour (more for qualified teachers with degrees and such of course).

And it would help if you could show some fabric swatches the designer will be using on the teachers penthouses.

Really, nothing is stopping you. You could put your money where your mouth is and really improve the lot of teachers in China as you claim to want to do.

Don't curse the dark; light a candle!!

Cheer and beers to those who can turn envy, resentment and self loathing into "walking the walk" instead of just "talking the talk"!!

We who are about to work for you, salute you!!

now about those holidays...

[vikuk]

Reading between the lines of Teatime�s post you can see he agrees with me that conditions - the market - doesn't really help the FT to be a front runner in the EFL wage game � since those market forces that have the major role in evolving salary conditions � the recruiter/employer � so often seek out and choose the cheaper alternative to maximise profits.
All well and fine id this was taking place in an ethical business/employment environment � with an enforced regulation or two with regard to working conditions and educational standards, but��. To understand what kind of employment environment all of this goes on in, read a quote from another thread (I'm still running through a proxy so no quote box - looks like another web crackdown in my area - everything online is running superslow) -

"I worked in sales for many years and sold cars, insurance, financial services, funerals and cemetery plots, electronics, lab equipment, and was a sales rep in manufacturing. I have also worked in corporate environments, been a cubicle dweller, customer service rep, auditor, and sales manager. That being said, I have never, ever seen the level of unprofessionally, lying, cheating, and overall bull crap as I have seen in the EFL business, and I have come across some pretty slimy characters in my day. This includes some teachers too, not just the schools."
(this quote was put up yesterday � and has been taken out of context, since it includes the posters observations of Korea aswell as China � but I think it also says something on this subject)

Where teatime and me differ is -
He advocates the grinning and bearing policy - I chose to pipe up - even though I know my calls for more diligence and tenacity in the wage negotiation game are on the micro-pathetic scale!!!!

He tells us that it�s a fallacy to think of employers making big money out of the education game - but in that case why is so much money being invested in private education projects??? And not just Chinese money - but a lot of outside investment. And even if you beleive in the concept that this is a business - and therefore the employer has a right to make as much profit as possible - then running on this logic - its certainly in order for us as FT employees to ask for a higher share - indeed in a business of high profit/finacial turnover - it would be stupid not to!!!!
(paper profits in China are often kept very low - partly to avoid the fingers of the taxman)

Teatime talks of FT's negotiating the best wage - but how many times have you read in these threads the statement - "I'm not here for the money". Which rather opens the gate for any employer looking for the - cheaper alternative

Guys don't get me wrong - I'm not saying you can earn a fortune in the China FT game - but we at least can try to punch our way out of the GNU type 5000/month wage. More FT's who reject this kind of wage level can only influence a push in the direction of improving general FT standards. After all how many years has that GNU type wage been at that level - and those of you who have been here long-term - how many improvements have you noted over the years in general employment conditions?????

[clark.w.griswald]

[vikuk]

Clark writes -

"The problem that you have failed to address is why should schools such as Gannan pay more money? Just because we may want more money does not really qualify, so why not lay out for us all in point form the basis for your claim for higher wages for everyone?'

That's an easy one to answer. If we have no rights in "deserving/qualifying for" higher wage levels - how do our employers - in times of China inflationary pressures and rising costs - "deserve" to reap higher profits on the backs of the "cheapest alternative FT"?? That rather smacks of exploitation!!!
Ahhh yes they have invested their millions and billions in these projects - but we as the poor minion - also invest our time, labor and parts of our lives in these projects. In the world of employer/employee - things like wage-levels are a two way game - and it would be stupid to go about the business of wage negotiation with that idea that I'm not worth more (this is the concept that lies behind serfdom - keep to your place). By the way with regard to this argument - there must be something of special value that we offer this market/business place - otherwise why go looking for canditates that come from halfway around the world!!!!!!!

But the new FT may have some naive notion that China is third world country and your coming here to help its poor (in reality the poor of this country rarely get a look inside the FT's classroom)!!!! There are plenty of these folk, or the hobby teacher, or those with financial means to work and smile on the poorest of wage. And good luck to these folk as well - but at least if nothing else my posts - open their eyes to the notion of being used as the cheapest alternative and why their cheap labor is so attractive to many Chinese employers.

And then comes the questions regarding personal/professional pride - but in unregulated environment such as EFL China we�ll leave that one in the "horses for courses" stable

By the way my answer to Clark�s question was built around philosophical logic (well maybe my argument wasn�t that grand � maybe typical vik BS would be a better description) � and in the real day world there is nothing to stop GNU�s paying their low wages � unless you guys refuse to accept them and try to keep the cheaper alternative at bay. Of course an unrealistic pipedream � but once again another place to park a principle or two!!!!

[Teatime of Soul]

vikuk, we probably do have a lot of common agreement in areas regarding the treatment of FTs in China.

Part of the problem is the nebulous and misperceived notion of what a teacher is. If a true professional, like a lawyer or doctor, the FT could charge what the market will bear and be known for his reputation. That is, if FTs were really free market professionals.

On the other hand, if FTs are simply fungible commodities, interchangable and trivially replaceable McWorkers, then their best strategy is to group together and form a mutual protection society with minimum wages - like union workers do.

So while migrant grape pickers from Mexico were able to form a union thirty years ago in America, the "educated" "Foreign Teachers" of China lack such solidarity, organizational goals and legal protections.

That's not a swipe at FTs or China's legal work environment, it's just the way it is.

So, saying 5,000 RMB is "low" is like calling a duck a goat; you can persist with it, but it doesn't change the underlying reality - 5,000 is not in fact "low" as compared to paid (not desired) wages in China.

Something to bear in mind, neither Wall Street nor EF franchises have made money in China. A large number of universities are dangerously in debt financing huge expansions. My observation is that 95% of all English Training centers fail within two years.

FTs don't put the money at risk to open these schools. But if they want to, they can. I just don't think it is as easy, or as profitable as you appear to think.

I'm serious when I suggest you look into opening your own school, make payroll for a few years and then let us know if your wages are "exploitive" or not. With all due respect, I think maybe you aren't working the numbers through on both sides of the equation.

As far as "treatment" of FTs, you have valid points about the lack of respect you feel is entitled. Nobody wants to be a stereotypical "dancing white monkey".

But let's not create another stereotype - the FT as a highly educated, principled, qualified and professional class of exploited English teaching unfortunates. We both know an embarrassingly high number of FTs are doing as much to make us all look like dancing monkeys as any exploitive overlord.

It's a muddled and far from optimal situation, and I'm not suggesting change isn't due. It's just that maybe the change needs to come on both side of the fence.

Thanks

[peepertice]

[clark.w.griswald]

Nice post Teatime.

I don't want to take away from that so I will keep mine brief.

[arioch36]

Snoop

[The Great Wall of Whiner]

[vikuk]

Thanks again to Teatime for some very serious warnings about the China EFL trade. And yes its he that brings up that all too horrible specter of the cheap dancing monkey show � which after all is just another way of describing so much of the China FT game (always a cheap monkey in the wings).

And again its Teatime who brings on the question of solidarity among FT�s � but of course we could never be an organized workforce here � if nothing else the transient nature of the normal FT and their prioritizing of life factors that lie outside the workplace � mostly related with being the visitor whose main concern is experiencing China. These factors are those that make often make our jobs bearable � enduring the workplace for the sake of your free-time. But remember � increases in wages, bettering of conditions � could be hindered because a group of FT�s decided to work on the cheap on the promise of perks such as a few cheap Tai Chi or mandarin lessons. Of course nothing stopping them � but don�t expect any praise from this poster (and I suspect quite a few others)!!!
But what I do like is that people have stopped using the �vik is bitter� argument to try and make this thread go away. But almost as funny is the � �put your money where your mouth is� logic. Telling me to start my own school if I�m not happy with the wages. What on earth has this topic to do with my business future � isn�t it more to do with the present employment prospects of all you folk who are (or thinking of) working in this industry at the moment!!!!
This discussion ploy also smacks of � keep to your place young man.

But there are some folk who do have experience of the real China who�re willing to contribute to this thread. Thanks Arioch for your insight � you know about balancing the books Chinese style � where paper results are sometimes compromised by insuring �number ones� wallet is padded, and all the under the table deals that go on in this business. In respect to this I�d once again like to bring attention to those larger institutions that have more complicated budgeting processes than the ordinary mill (eg middle schools and unis) Here budgets may be written, but actual expenses which are much cheaper are padded out with false receipts. In this respect I really feel the great wall of whiner could be on the mark with his suspicion that in many university positions the budget for the FT wages is in fact much higher than the wages paid � the difference going into various pockets of those who also have something to do with supplying the false wage receipts that imply a full wage was paid!!!
I have no evidence for this (although we have heard of more concrete suspicions regarding a similar scam - that of getting FT's to pay excess income tax) � but if any of you guys with real China FT experience reckon that this is a far-fetched notion - then I�d look forward to reading your comments.