Job Discussion Forums

[vikuk]

I can also understand the TingBuDongs of China (money isn't everything!!!) - but when they spout out that ol' "they must be bitter nutmeg" regarding those calls for the bettering of standards, that come from FT's who do find money/wages important (from his first post) -

[TingBuDong]

In my first comment I didn't mean to suggest that there aren't legitimate complaints, or that there aren't any teachers anywhere being underpaid. I was mostly reacting to the very obnoxious "foreign teachers are dancing monkeys" comments in the topic and others. I am not a dancing monkey, nor is anyone at this school. Students would complain if they weren't being taught anything. At this school the students care quite a lot about their classes with foreign teachers and typically I have zero students absent. I know that many schools are in fact dishonest and bad to work for, and one must do their research. But overall the negativity on this board does not match the reality of teaching in China I have seen for two years, and certainly some complaints are born more of bitterness than anything (though not all). I was almost dissuaded from coming to China by this message board originally, so when potential newcomers ask questions I want to give them a positive impression, because for me this is the reality. To say I am being underpaid or taken advantage of in my particular school is simply not true.

[vikuk]

[arioch36]

[vikuk]

[arioch36]

[vikuk]

I know for sure that if you don't bargain you're thought of as almost stupid
(maybe in the case of the lao wai as strange - or maybe so rich that money doesn't matter - so wages are almost a symbolic payment)

My theory regarding false receipts is based on the fact that much of the financing that goes on in private unis comes from outside investor groups - and that those inside the school although wanting to please those investors may be tempted to keep a bit of money in their own pockets. In smaller concerns - a Chinese family business - its often a very trustable family member who runs the books and controls the cash flows via reciepts. In the bigger scale concerns - trying to find dependable economic management can be a difficult prospect - and internal embezzlement could affect FT wages!!!

Remember this is just a theory - and ariochs "looking the efficient worker" theory holds just as much water. But who cares - the most important thing is to bargain bargain and bargain again!!!!

[arioch36]

[TingBuDong]

arioch,

"Haughty assumptions" was too strong a phrase and I take that back. I was referring to the assumptions that 3,000 RMB is too low a salary to have accepted in Zhangye. It is not. If salary is completely unrelated to the location of the school, then I feel that system should be changed. There is no reason for a teacher in Beijing to be paid the same salary as me, and certainly not for them to be paid less. Cost of living here is a fraction of that in Beijing. I could live on 500/month if I wanted, and some do. Local salaries don't seem to be taken into consideration in most salary discussions (I'm not referring to you necessarily, just in general) but I feel they should be; I'm already being paid almost twice that of Chinese colleagues who are given more work. Am I to feel I'm worth three times as much as them? Four times? Could I really have come here to immerse myself in China while making that kind of money simply for being "foreign"? The accommodations here are also quite good and I did negotiate a couple of things in the contract before coming.

I have been at this school for almost two years and have known perhaps 20 foreign teachers who have worked here, a few of them being career teachers with 10+ years of experience in China. No one has suggested that the salaries given by our school are too low and the average length of stay has been around two years, with quite a many extending contracts. However I am consistently attacked or belittled by others (again speaking in general) following the very few posts here I make about my experience. There seems to be a general trend of mocking or criticizing posters with positive experiences, which is unfortunate.

[vikuk]

Going back to that concept of the fair wage (as opposed to knowing the school is paying you the maximum it can afford) - and FT's feeling embarassed over bargaining their wages up and earing more than their Chinese colleagues - then a simple way out of this moral dilema is to give those superferlous bucks away to some good cause.
A charity - or maybe aiding less well off students with school materials - or even giving it to the poor directly!!!
Now that's a fair way of using money - and bit more imaginative than saying no thanks I don't want more money because everybody is poor round here.
After all how does that attitude help - none of that money, you refuse, will ever get to the poor just because you say no!!! All that attitude invites is further exploitation

This kind of concept goes to heart of some of posts here - they aint aimed at mocking good experiences - but questioning strange principles!!!!!

[chia48]

There is a difference between the private colleges and the public unis. Not always obvious as the former tend to be 'associated' with the latter, giving them more credibility. Private colleges charge 5 times the usual tuition to attract less capable students to a programme that has been provided by a 'partner' - eg. a recognized Canadian or Australian university. The unsuspecting laowai thinks there are going to be real academic standards, but finds out that the whole thing is more or less a scam, a means for those who can find the money to buy a diploma for their precious youngster.

Even more important perhaps, these colleges can also provide an avenue for the student to study abroad, and eventually emigrate.

Public universities are a different story, they must meet ministry of education standards, are subject to inspections and evaluations. Students who do well on their college entrance tests will be able to enter the highest ranking public unis. The colleges are just filling a niche in the desperately competitive academic market. The experience of teaching in such a place ends up disappointing, IMHO

[SnoopBot]

[Silent Shadow]

[quote]The institutions that many of us envision when you post your story is the typical Chinese ones that have the director and admin staff driving expensive cars while telling their FT's that they cannot afford above 3000 a month. [/quote]


The above sentence says it all. That is my main beef with many schools in China.

At a previous college I worked in if I wanted decent copies of handouts photocopied, either the students or myself had to pay for every copy if I required more than 20 copies at once. I had about 150 writing students and a similar amount of oral English students, so that would have meant the poor students dipping into their pockets every time I gave them a handout, unless I paid for them out of my not to impressive salary.

If I was not willing to do the above on principle, there was an alternative. There was an old printing machine that used cheap ink on crappy looking paper that resmbled poor quality toilet paper. After 15 to 17 years of cramming and memorizing from textbooks, if students didn't need glasses before they arrived at college then they needed them after trying to read those almost illegible cheap copies. Students whose parents were mostly farmers, were at the same institution, charged three yuan an hour for use of the ping pong tables. A small fortune for them.


Fair enough you might say. Though a public school, they were just balancing their finances. However, all the leaders openly drove around in fancy, brand new Buicks. Also, while I was there this penny-pinching did not extend to the calling off, of a trip to Russia by the school leaders. The same school that couldn't afford to allow farmers sons and daughters to play ping pong and receive decent handouts without paying for the privilege, suddenly had plenty of money for certain extravagances. That must have been the reason why they wouldn't pay a penny to any of the foreign teachers for their utilities either. How could they pay for their Buicks, otherwise?

At another college, the school by using clever wording in the contract were able to wriggle out of paying for teacher's Z visas. Teachers had to pay their own way to Hong Kong, including flight/ train ticket, hotel and food. Teachers also had to pay for their medical examinations out of their own pockets too.

Again, you might say "Whats wrong with that? It's normal busines procedure. They're balancing their finances." I don't particularly believe that employees are entitled to any of the profits that a business or institution makes. What I don't like is being lied to when I pull them up about certain things.

This same college told me "If we pay for your Z visa we will have to pay for everbody's." That's not true for a start, but even if they did pay for all ten foreign teachers it would have cost no more than a "whopping" 6000 yuan. I told the FAO that public schools usually pay for such things as Z visas and medicals and that each school receives a certain amount of government money for each foreign teacher they employ.
However, "Oh no! We are only a semi-public school. We get no such funding from the government. We just charge our students higher fees to make up for it. They pay about 1600 RMB a year for their tuition."
"That little," thought I. "Poor school, no wonder your leaders can only afford to drive top of the range Toyotas around, and not Porsches. You poor poverty-stricken..."
" You can afford to pay your own medical fee. It's only 500 RMB. It's not expensive," said the FAO.
"If it's not expensive why doesn't the school pay for it then? They are a little bit richer than me," said I.
"Ah! But if we paid for you we would have to pay for..."

The starting salary at that school is 4000 RMB a month for a bachelors degree. The school recently funded an all expenses paid trip to Australia for the leaders. Who knows how much that cost? I have since found out that many students at that college pay up to 27000 RMB a year for their tuition.

"WHY can't you pay for my medical fee," said I.
"Because we can't afford it, " said the FAO.


I didn't want a share of their profits. If I ask the school why my wage is at the bottom end of the scale, or why they are not paying for something as basic as a medical examination, I don't want to hear that it's because the school can not afford it when it's OBVIOUS that they can. If you don't want to pay higher salaries you don't have to, but please, less of the pleading poverty as you pull up in your Buick, with your trunk laden with expensive robes, wines and cheeses after your trip to Australia.

Snoopbot is correct. Marriage to a Chinese national is a real eye-opener. You really get to see and understand how this system works, and a lot of what you learn is not pleasant.

[Silent Shadow]

Just a small but important correction of my previous post about the extravagances of some school leaders.

I mentioned a college charging students 1600 RMB a year for their tuition.
The correct figure is 16000 RMB a year.

Sorry about the typo. I hope it clarifies things.

[vikuk]