Job Discussion Forums

[wailing_imam]

The figure mentioned by a poster of 5000RMB a month being the average salary per month in Shanghai is not correct. The salary of 5800 marks the average salary of white collar workers here, compared to 18,000 in HK($). The average salary in Shanghai is way below 5000 a month.

[vikuk]

[The_Hanged_Man]

Thanks Malu and John for the feedback.

I have to say that I am totally stoked to be moving to Shenzhen. It might not be paradise, but after 2 years in Kuwait it'll seem pretty close.

(Edited to fix my crappy grammar. I'm a math teacher for a reason!)

[flutterbayou]

[vikuk]

Flutter I think you're getting a little confused - since I was wasn't the original source of the 5.8 quote, and it related to Chinese white collar workers - as a compaison to FT wages!!!!
What your post does stress however is how competitive a market Shanghai is - one that thankfully doesn't reflect the China FT norm (but one that may give some indication surrounding future trends). Flutter's post gives us food for thought - and an indication that higher general wages are something we should expect, indeed negotiate for, when faced with higher costs in the more prosperous areas of China.

[beck's]

To get back to the OPs original question. Here is how my budget works on the typical 14 hour a week public uni job in the boonies (albeit close to a tourist destination) with the crappy salary of about 4,000 a month.

Food: I eat bread and cheese, peanut butter, marmalade and ground Vietnamese coffee for breakfast. Either this or imported muslix and yogurt. I always eat breakfast at home and my diet here never varies nor do I want it to. It's the same stuff I eat at home. I will not compromise on breakfast.

Lunches are usually noodles or stir fry and rice eaten in one of those filthy garage door restaurants that are everywhere. I eat sitting on a stool hunched over my grub. Supper is similar to lunch except that sometimes I eat in a sit-down-on-a-chair place (maybe twice a week) or go to KFC or Macdonald's. About once a week I cook at home but that is more for entertainment. I never eat in the "canteen." You have to draw a line in the sand somewhere.

Entertainment: I drink grocery store beer, watch pirated DVDs and listen to pirated CDs. I get them for about 10 yuan each. Right now I'm listening to Johnny Hartman and drinking a Tsing Tao. I am always reading a good book. I can get good modern literature at second hand book exchanges. I am past it for discos and noisy bars. Thankfully, there is no Starbuck's here. On my salary that would be an impossible habit. I sometimes go on weekend excursions to local towns on the backpacker circuit. There I splurge on hot food that isn't filled with bones, feet and innards. I enjoy the backpacker banana pancakes etc. At these times I stay in cheap hotels that cost about 70 RMB a night. When I do this it is a major expense on my salary.

Clothing: I wear pirated Tommy Hilfiger, North Face, Ralph Lauren etc. I can get these in "European" sizes. Most of my clothing I brought from home.

Transportation: Mostly I take local busses but I often take taxis during periods when the busses are crowded or during rush hours. I refuse to push and shove to get on a bus. Another line in the sand.

Travel: My low salary means that I subsidize all extensive and foreign travel with income made at home from my teachers' pension. I fly or travel soft sleeper. Then again, I am using money from home.

Day to day (excluding travel) I live pretty much like the local teachers, I think. I enjoy the job. The FAO are great and very supportive.

[arioch36]

Beck

[bearcanada]

Beck, you made two interesting posts here. I disagree with much of what you stated in your first one, but you should be thanked for the personal detail in your second one. Too many people post here with general claims about salary or conditions that may or may not be factual, but in any case offer little substance that is really helpful.

For your first post, I believe vikuk was correct in asking why teacher opportunities haven't dried up in Japan, Korea or Taiwan. Every college grad and every manager at any level I have met in China, wants to improve their English. It will be at least a generation before the needs here are satisfied, and perhaps much longer.

The China Olympic committee says they are short at least 200,000 English-speaking people for the big event, and the Dept. of Ed. was quoted in Xinhua as saying the country is at least that short of foreign English teachers. Much of that shortage may be in the hinterland, but there are no real signs that teachers will be out of jobs anytime soon.

Your comments about 'hobby teachers' and 'trustfundafarians' were a bit offensive, to be honest.

It's likely very true that midlife teachers will not emigrate to a foreign country for the reasons vikuk pointed out - they are at their peak earning years, are raising families, buying houses and planting grass and cannot afford to uproot themselves at that stage. So the FTs here are either young, at the start of their careers, or older, after the kids have left home and they can afford to move. I've met quite a few teachers here in their 60s, and they are by no means 'hobby' teachers. They also tend to get the best jobs.

I believe that the 'bitterness' you've mentioned cannot and will not stem from midlife teachers who feel they're missing the boat, as you suggested. Rather, I believe it stems from another category of person who tends to come to China (and perhaps other Asian countries as well).

These are the unlucky or the perennial misfits who were unable to find stable and happy employment (and relationships) in their home countries and felt compelled to try something else. They are here for a new beginning, but they brought their problems with them and are those who seem to have so much difficulty either in being taken advantage of, or just in accommodating the system. For sure, I have met, and heard about, more than my share of FT flakes and psychos. So many of my grad students tell me of their 'really weird' FT at university earlier, or now at EF or some other mill.

In the end, aside from the adventuresome young and the financially secure older persons, we have many FTs here who felt it necessary to pull up roots and go far away to find a happier life. The evidence is that they are not finding it, and they seem to gravitate to this board to complain. It pains me to read all the stories of people who set themselves up for unpleasant experiences and downright misery, but there's nothing much to be done.

As to your last post, I think you have done a service to many readers here, who will be able to understand from your words what life as an FT is like here. There was much value in your information, and I think we should thank you for that.

I must say you left me a bit sad because your life could be much better than it is. You didn't ask for my advice and I don't want to appear presumptuous, but you could be living a much better life than you describe; it's there for the asking. Really. Ten hours a week of private lessons at 150 RMB per hour will give you another 6,000 a month - much more than you are earning now - and that's the difference between living very well and just getting by. There is no reason you should have to draw on savings to travel around China or to go out every night. And for goodness sake, you should be able to eat in a proper restaurant every day if you don't care to cook your own meals.

Corporate work will often pay at least 250 per hour and maybe 400, and it's easier than teaching in a school or university. You don't have to just accept what you have been given; there is much you can do to make it very much better. I hope you can find a way to try.

.

[judgedredd]

Bearcanada, thanks for posting a really very interesting and well thought out reply, that is a great help to me!
While i don't really know too much about the EFL scene in China, everything you said there seems to make sense.
So from what you said, an easy university job, with the minimum possible hours, that pays around 5000RMB, is the way to go. And then supplement that with privates.
But i have one question, regarding what you said about teaching 10 hours of privates a week would give u an extra 6000 per month. I am sure that one could afford a quite extravagent lifestyle with all that extra income, certainly it adds up to more than I earn here in Thailand, and I do live quite well here..
But my question is, how easy is it to get 10 regular and reliable private students? Students who will be relaible enough at least, so you can more or less be sure that you will defiantly have that extra income?

[judgedredd]

Beck's, thanks also for your very interesting post, replying to my original question. That was a very honest and insightfull account of what its like to be living and working in China, on the average wage, an interesting read. I appreciate your help!

I guess you don't save anything then? lol

[bearcanada]

Judgedredd, I've had experience teaching only in Shanghai so my comments may not apply to the rest of the country. There seems to be no shortage here of individuals who are willing to pay for private tutoring. I don't have ten private students because I avoid the real beginners who are not my specialty, and prefer to work with higher-level management and professional people. They pay better - 250 to 400 per hour - but they cancel a third or more of their classes because they travel.

I have often thought that the best way to earn a lot of money and to enjoy doing it would be to hold conversation 'salons', with up to 10 or 12 people each paying 100 RMB per hour and the teacher moderating the topics and conversations. Most of these potential students will pay in advance for a term of three months, so 2,400 each times 10 people. I always meant to do this and always got distracted with my other classes and didn't follow up. But it has huge potential, and even 50 RMB per hour for 10 people is good. Three or four classes on a Saturday morning or spread over a few evenings is more than enough to live well on......

My private students at the moment are a physician who needs to pass her IELTS Band 7 so she can practice medicine in a Western country; a China CEO of a huge Japanese conglomerate; a manager of a Western university office; and a Finance Manager for a large Chinese company.

For the rest, my real preference is for corporate work, teaching classes to the staff of a company, who are always younger university grads with at least one degree. It's relaxed and friendly, without a structured system compelling one to do things, and I can design classes to deal with a particular group. These people really want to improve their conversational English so they can get a better job, and are wonderful students. Also, 250 per hour is the minimum, and often 400 isn't difficult to negotiate. Typically these classes are two hours twice a week, or maybe 4 or 5 hours one time each week. That's enough to live on, and if you have two or three of these you can live very well by working only several afternoons a week.

In Shanghai, it's easy to earn 20,000 RMB a month and 30,000 is available with some digging for students and judicious arrangement of timetables. 40,000 per month is possible, but that's approaching hard work and you'd likely have to work full-time to do it.

I have three part-time corporate jobs that pay 15,000, 7,000 and 6,000, and my private students in addition, usually for 1.5 or two hours each week. Two of my corporate jobs are across the street from each other, and the third only 10 minutes away from these. And all are within 15 or 20 minutes of my home, so travel time is minor.

I also lecture part-time at Fudan University here, on business cases to the MBA classes. Small hours, but the pay is quite high and the classes are really enjoyable...

I was also unbelieveably (and undeservedly) lucky in being offered a contract with a Chinese tourism planning company. It involves writing and editing tourist information but also traveling around China with them to see all the sites they've been hired (by various provincial governments) to design and plan. So I get paid to see all of China.....

.

[judgedredd]

Bearcanada,
Seems like you are doing quite well for yourself then! Fair play to you
mate..

As I mentioned earlier, I will probably avoid Shanghai and Beijing, so I guess my earning potential will be a lot less than yours but still, you offer lots of encouragement to me!

Your idea of teaching groups is an interesting one, and believe it or not, I have actually considered doing something similar here in Thailand too..

What I thought of doing, was just teaching groups of 5 or 6 friends, 2 hours a week, or something like that. The only thing that stopped me doing it, was a Thai friend of mine suggested it probably wouldn't work, as classes at Language schools like ECC or AUA here in thailand can be incredibly cheap, I think one course of 10(?) lessons costs something like 2000 baht, its really quite inexpensive.

I wonder, are language schools in China also just as cheap? If they are more expensive than in Thailand it certainly seems to be a very good, viable idea you have there..

Or then again, maybe its all about how you market yourself?

Hmm... You have got me thinking now... Ha ha..

[beck's]

This has turned out to be a very interesting and informative threat.

Bearcanada, I didn't mean to be offensive by referring to the hobby teachers and trustfundafarians.

I am not bitter towards the trustfundafarians. The few that I know are great fellows and wonderful company. Ditto goes for the GAP year students.

I consider myself to be one of the retired "hobby teachers," although I take my time with my students very seriously and strive to create for them a stimulating classroom environment and language rich experience. I have been offered private lessons but I am at the stage of my life now where free time is more important than money so I have refused them. Don't forget that I am piling money up in the west. Although I use part of my pension money/investment income to travel, I don't, by any means, use it all. Every minute that I am in China my bank account at home gets larger.

I had the whole teaching career thing in the west, much, but not all of the time working with students who had severe behavior problems. At times it was highly stressful. To use the old cliche, been there, done that, bought the tee shirt. I have a house, grown up children who are doing well and now I want to teach and travel until the grand-kids arrive. There are many of my kind here and most of us, including myself, are enjoying the experience of the "real," off-the-beaten-track China complete with grimy noodle stands and greasy pork stir fries. The corporate ESL world holds no interest for me. On the other hand, I would never get into the situation described by Nemesis in another post where he describes his uni class from hell. In his situation I could afford to be in Bangkok in four or five hours and in his situation I would laugh all the way.

I think that you make some excellent points and povide excellent insights re the expansion of ESL teaching in the corporate world. I will rethink my positon on this.

[bearcanada]

Judgedredd, you said, "What I thought of doing, was just teaching groups of 5 or 6 friends, 2 hours a week, or something like that. The only thing that stopped me doing it, was a Thai friend of mine suggested it probably wouldn't work, as classes at Language schools like ECC or AUA here in thailand can be incredibly cheap, I think one course of 10(?) lessons costs something like 2000 baht, its really quite inexpensive. "

I believe your observations on this re accurate for China as well, but I think that is only at the lower end of the market. I know people who take courses at EF here, and the net cost to them is only maybe 30 yuan per hour for the class time and online time is essentially free for them. Mostly they are young college grads who haven't much money, so this is a good avenue for them.

But you don't want to compete at the low end of the market. Shops like Oxford English charge 250 RMB per hour and Wall Street 400 or more, for small group encounters. Their students are a bit older and more experienced, and are earning higher salaries. That's a better place to look.

Beck, thank you for your comments. Nice to meet you.

.

[malu]

A good thread this is turning out to be.

Like a few other posters, I can't see FT's being replaced by local teachers anytime soon. The performing monkey McJobs require a white face by their very definition, but at the other end of the educational scale I see a stable or growing demand for reliable and experienced FT's.

I'm a science teacher (I do also hold a TESOL cert), so mine is the sort of job you would expect to be replaced by a local teacher fairly quickly. The opposite is true, however. Just last week I saw a local physics teacher being replaced by a FT in response to complaints from parents that their kids weren't being taught using proper English(!)

As more elite schools and prep colleges move to English medium curricula they discover very swiftly that local English teachers are similarly just not able to cut it at that level so I have seen more rather than fewer FT's doing ESL in this part of the market.

It is true that elite 'international' schools educate a tiny proportion of China's youth - but do the maths and you'll see that they employ a sizeable chunk of the FT population. My school employs around 45 FT's (at the last count!).