Job Discussion Forums

[anigbrowl]

Hello! I'd like to get some advice about teaching prospects in China. I've read through a great many of the forums an information articles, and I can see that it is not for the faint-hearted

The essence of my uncertainty: I do not have a university degree. I can see that this limits the number of positions I can apply for, and places me at far greater risk of being ripped off, something I naturally wish to avoid. Let me balance that with what I do have going for me.


* I have a TEFL (not TESOL) qualification, although I did it over ~8 years ago and would like to do another course this summer, for reasons of both currency and confidence.

* I have a lot of work experience - I'm 32 now, was in computers for about 10 years and spent the last few years doing sound engineering and not having a musical career I have a lot of exposure to financial environments, wrote an internet book and write the occasional article for professional magazines.

* I have teaching experience in both individual and group situations, mostly with Japanese students, and a few Chinese as well. I am sensitive to the particular difficulties that Asian learners have with English. Yes, I genuinely enjoy teaching and take the responsibility seriously.

* I also have about 10 years of speech & drama classes under my belt; the theoretical part of that requires understanding the mechanisms of speech formation in the oral cavity, and this has helped a lot in teaching pronunciation (and learning it...not trivial where chinese is concerned!). And I have a strong personal interest in linguistics, grammar, and suchlike. I just like language, it's rich and interesting.

Incidentally, I'm Irish. Yes, we learn English as our first language here (something even people in the US have asked me about, to my surprise). I'm not worried about my diction et al (I am sort of accentless after a lot of living abroad and speech training as above), but I don't know if this would need extra explanation for chinese employers. Probably it would be balanced by the red hair and blue eyes

Regarding China specifically...

* I'm an 'Asiaphile' in general since age 5, including being married to (and divorced from) a Japanese lady in my younger days. This won't insulate me from culture shock, but will cushion the blow a bit, I feel. Yes, I can eat Chinese every day, and when I get bored I'm a passable cook (worked at it for a while).

* I have travelled a lot; lived in the UK, USA (as an illegal alien), Netherlands, and worked temporarily in other countries. I like new experiences, I'm adaptable, I can live out of a holdall for months on end, and I don't get homesick. ~13 years living in other (admittedly western) countries has given me some street smarts, I like the self-reliance it demands. I'm OK anywhere once I find the local Chinatown

* I'm not in it for the money - just as well, eh? Although I'm enterprising and like to work hard, I'm not a terribly material person. If life in China works out, then I will seriously consider settling there permanently. It seems to me that China is going through a transition from backward closed country to being a major world power in future decades, perhaps in 30-40 years it will be like Japan today. It's sort of the biggest show on earth, and I don't want to miss it. (You probably know what I mean).

* I can take being a foreigner. Left-field roles seem to come naturally to me. No, I won't ever be Chinese, but perhaps after a few years I'll be able to fool people on the telephone!


Living, maybe settling, in China is more of a personal goal than about bucks or backpacking. It's risky and challenging, but I won't curl up and die the first time something goes amiss. I seem to perform better in sink-or-swim environments, actually. But as I've put on years, I've realised that failure to plan often means planning to fail.

Thus, I'm trying to be realistic about the prospects for working without a college degree. I don't feel it prevents me from being a good ESL teacher in practise, and I respect my own work & living experience, but the University of Life doesn't issue diploma certificates And knowing how education is valued in Asian societies, that lack *is* going to be a stumbling block.

It seems from other people's comments that the best approach might be to get to China via Hong Kong and research jobs locally, but I would like to try applying in advance also. I'm thinking about the Guangzhou or Shenzen area, as I prefer a hot climate. Any comments on that are welcome.

So - is it a disadvantage that can be overcome with hard work and a good attitude, or the career equivalent of trying to ride a bicycle with no wheels? I see some people saying it's surmountable, while others regard it as disastrous.

Thank you for reading, and I would greatly appreciate any feedback you can give. This is a really helpful information resource and I'm really impressed with everyone's helpful attitude!

eddy

[MyTurnNow]

Sure, go for it! I've heard much worse qualifications from great teachers, and much better qualifications from lousy ones.

Don't live in HK to research jobs unless you have vast piles of money lying around. (If you do have vast piles of money lying around, come talk to me, OK? ) HK is one of the most expensive cities on earth...and one of the most tempting.

If you're really nuts enough to want the steam heat of GZ/SZ, try http://www.thatsguangzhou.com Other good job sources include this site and a thoughtful web search can turn up many more.

When you get here look me up. We'll hoist a few drinks, just as one Irish stage actor to another...
MT

[Roger]

Anigbrowl,
I feel you have every qualification you might need to do a sensible job here! Coming from the theater, I believe you have an advantage over many of us!
Just don't think CHinese have special needs in learning our language!@ Be rational, not ethnocentric! If given the same chance a Scandinavian has of learning the language the right way, they turn out just as competent as an IRishman.

I also endorse your choice of Guangdong wholeheartedly! It's got the most jobs. Guangzhou is a monster city but it is an interesting one. You can also live comfortably outside in the green hinterland.

[anigbrowl]

Just a short comment to clarify what I said about the special needs of Asian students learning English. I hope nobody got the idea that I think they're less capable or anything like that.

I was thinking more of things like pronunciation mores and language differences. For example, the Japanese are famous for 'not being able' to pronounce R and L sounds seperately, eg river and liver. Every year or two I see a study from a neurologist or linguist 'proving' that the Japanese brain is incapable of differentiating these sounds due to having learned the in-between sounding Japanese consonant in infancy.

This is total crap, and to my mind almost racist (you never see studies on western inability to pronounce Japanese correctly). Many teachers just shout out 'L! R!' repeatedly and then say 'Japanese can't do it.' Now, you make an 'L' sound by touching the tongue to the ridge of bone behind your top teeth. And the 'R' sound by curling the tongue backwards without touching the roof of the mouth. (The Japanese RL sound is harder to do, involving curling the tongue and then flicking it forward). I have found it takes about 15 minutes to explain this to a Japanese student and after a few days they begin to internalise it and pronounce or distinguish these two sounds without difficulty.

On the grammar side, asian languages in general seem to get by without as many articles (a, the, etc) as English, and also have a different approach to verb conjugations and tenses. (I am not a linguistic expert, these are very superficial observations!). So the 'special' things I was thinking of were addressing these language differences and empahasising how important they for confident conversation, at least as much as the semantic content or vocabulary. A European language speaker learning ESL would take the conjugation of verbs for granted, as it's the norm in our language family.

Actually, I can't help wondering if the 'canonical' ESL approach taught in many courses and textbooks is overly eurocentric in its approach to explaining English. This is more of an ESL than a China, issue - sorry - but I've seen many people comment on how the textbook approach fails in China. I can well believe in the 'dancing western panda' phenomenon, I've just been struck in the past by ESL material that seems to reference a european meta-language, and teach English the exact same way to Chinese, Spanish, and Polish students as if there were no difference in their linguistic background.

So my notion of 'special needs' stems from the question 'what makes an Asian language seem more foreign to me than (say) Italian or German? Is it because I take certain concepts in English for granted?' I'm excited about the idea of learning Chinese, which I find a very musical language; and I'll have 'special needs' as a western student. I think the commonly-disliked response of 'Chinese is too difficult for you' or 'Just memorise everything' is a mirror image of eurocentric weaknesses in some ESL teaching approaches.

Gad - haven't even been there yet and I'm sounding off like a madman. Just trying to give an idea of what I would aspire to when I have a few years of proper class experience under my belt (I taught in London before, but for practise rather than my daily bread).

eddy

[Roger]

I think this could be an interesting thread in another forum, maybe the Linguistics forum.
YOu are right in observing that some people have some pretty silly ideas about why Asians function differently, but in my view, it's mostly Aisans that have funny ideas! For example, it has become a craze, apparently, to undergo surgery in order to modify the organs that produce sounds. Don't ask me which one in particular, but it seems to be a tendency for rich folks to spend money so they can "pronounce English correctly" - in Korea and in CHina!

BUt, I don't agree with you over whether teaching English is done in an "eurocentric" way to the detriment of our learners!
I hold that there simply is no alternative. Whatever language you acquire, you acquire a way of thinking, a pattern of structuring your thoughts, and that impacts on language itself. The one defining difference to European languages in comparison to CHinese would be grammatical. You are right in saying that CHinese presents very little in terms of grammar. That's why grammar must be stressed that much more for Chinese to come to grips with it. We on the other hand need more instruction and training in acquiring the ability to produce the correct tones when speaking Chinese. That requires a different, perhaps "sinocentric' approach.
The existence of tones was discovered by European travellers, not by CHinese themselves. To chinese, they are kind of God-given, a fact that seldom requires conscious thinking just like grammar in any European language does not require its speakers to consciously select the correct grammar elements.
In fact, I do believe we should be even more "eurocentric" in teaching our language(s) because this would sharpen our students' analytical skills!
Lest you think I am theoretising and philosophising, I have achieved a lot more with Chinese preschoolers than my CHinese teacher colleagues have in the same number of years! Those kids I have taught speak and understand English as competently as they do in their first tongue! Of course, their English is more limited, due to it being a second language used only during a grand total of 1 hour in every 168 hours.
How can students acquire the same proficiency in an L 2 as in their mother tongue when they do not spend an equal amount of time using the L 2?

[yaco]

This is a very interesting discussion about successful ways to obtain fluency in Oral English.

In teaching students who are attending vocational college, I find two primary issues that need to be resolved.

1) Chinese students are obsessed with speaking English using perfect grammar. Students need to pass a number of CET English courses during their schooling life. These certificates are prestigious in China. As this test only examines reading and writing hence their obsession with grammar. ( And yet after reading the study material for this test, the grammar is far from perfect). The foreign teachers at our college advise the students to concentrate on vocabulary and later we will correct the grammar. It does not help the students when taught Oral English by Chinese teachers they are often berated for grammatical errors. Hence their reluctance to communicate in English! Often when in conversation mode with students , I will write ' word for word' on the blackboard all words conversed. When we read this back, there is usually grammatical errors but the important point I stress to students is ' could we understand each other'.

2) The Chinese culture of ' saving face'. Students are scared to converse in English in case they make mistakes. This is a systemic cultural issue which may never change.

I wish to disagree with Roger's point about teaching pre schoolers. They are the easiest people to teach Oral English for the following reasons

1) At their age they have little or no reading or writing schools. This means you must teach them only Oral English which enhances their development.

2) At this age, you are open to many different learning stategies and have a willingness to learn. It would be possible with enough teaching hours to teach 2 or 3 languages simultaneously.

3) The children have not been afflicted with ' saving face'. Making mistakes in learning a new language is fun. There is no punishment or worry for these children.

Actually Roger, I probably did agree with your argument.

[Roger]

I am baffled by a couple of point you have made, yaco!

1: "Obsession" with English grammar? Where? In China??? Not to myh knowledge! Five years ago, the most recurrent rejoinder I would hear from Chinese taking part in oral parctice lessons was "we don't need to be linguists. Grammar is a waste of time".
Actually, I know why this is being said. They do learn it ad nauseam, but they don't learn to analyse English. They learn rules and vocabulary piecemeal and by heart, unlike what they do in Western countries! I know what I mean, having taught French and German to international students in Hong Kong!
Another reason why their grammar is anything but good: They rehearse things in unison, not learning to do things individually! In Western countries that I kknow each student's performance is measured individually, and they have to respond to teachers in the class individually. Not so in China!

2: Kindergartens in China: My best class has been with me for almost two years. They can now competently use several tenses, and they conjugate verbs correctly - unlike their primary school students. Why? Because I trained them both in chorus and individually. They don't lack self-confidence because they have not done things in an exclusively-communitarian way!
And: I taught them the ABC first thing!!! That helped a lot. IT gave them a firm grasp on phonetics (because Roman letters are phonetic). Thus they know why I make them spell a verb with a final -S - to make them pronounce "he HAS lunch" instead of "he have lunch"!

If you want to know how to teach preschoolers you should acquaint yourself with the philosophy of Maria Montessori!

[yaco]

Dear Roger

In your response to my argument, it seems you agree with Point 2, the ability of preschoolers to learn Oral English. According to your argument, preschoolers that you instruct in English are progressing extremely well. This is no doubt due to your excellent teaching technique. I was making the point that in 10 or 15 years time Oral English in China society will be at a much higher level. As more children learn English at the pre school age - please note at this age the concentration is on Oral English and not reading and writing and no national examinations to be concerned about.

In relation to point 2, Roger you partly agree with my argument. I agree with your assertion that Chinese learn English in a rote way to pass specific national examinations. I agree that Chinese students think their Grammar is perfect when in fact it is not. Check the exercises in the CET 4 Band preparation pack and note how correct the grammar is .

My assertion was that Chinese students are reluctant to converse in English because they fear making mistakes. This is exacerbated by Chinese English teachers who berate students for not speaking proper English ( Grammar Perfect ). Then you create a cycle of fear which grips the students.

I was speaking to a Chinese English teacher about this issue this week. The teacher mentioned that speaking proper English was essential. The teacher who is bi-lingual, mentioned they are reluctant to converse with foreigners because they fear making a mistake. ( In my current location there is very foreigners ). Although this does not stop this teacher from regularly chatting with myself. Maybe there is other reasons for this !

[Edward]

I say the Irish lad has an extrovert quality, and he talks too much! He will be a perfect teacher!!!

I have two Scottish friends who teach, and even WITH accents [one rather pronounced, the other much less so--I actually UNDERSTAND the latter] the students love them both. I also have a friend, an Irish lass, who teaches fasion design, and in English. Get your lily white Irish A** over here and have fun... there are actually quite a number of Irish/Scots here in South China, don't know about the rest of the country.

Oh, and you are right, you aren't looking at getting rich, ARE YOU!?

Good Luck

Edward

[arioch36]

Personally i think yaco and Roger are agreeing, except Roger hates to admit that what he does is teach a good oral english class.I believe writing and speaking (and listening and reading) are intertwined. But the biggest problem, as we know is that students don't talk and correct each other. When you write, you tend to make the same mistakes over and over, because your brain lies to you and makes it seem that you wrote correctly.
Again, I agree with Yaco, and I think Roger is really saying the same thing (he'll let me know)
I think Chinese are obsessed with grammar, and paradoxially this is why their grammar is poor, because the wrong way to learn basic grammar is to study it. Which of us studied gerunds or prepositions or verb tenses before we started saying it orally. None of us. I think one reason is because the limitations of the early Chinese teachers forced them to do rote book learning because their english was so poor. etc, etc,etc

Eurocentric...I guess it is a term we should define. I agree that eurocentric techniques are harmful if we mean not recognizing that Chinese grammar and language is very different in style (as compared to French versus English, or Spainish). Most cert courses don't take this into account, nor do traditional texts. Modern texts are too euro/american centric in another way. They try to give real life examples that are too foreign to the chinese student (and to me).
I have this wonderful "Modern English Book" Got It, Get it by Naomi someone. She has a lesson on introductions that i can't use in class, because it is only how upperclass people in New York City live. You can't teach two new things at once. Why can't she use English in a real life situation for common American college students, or better yet, common Chinese students.
? How many of you go to a theatere and leave your coat in a cloakroom? Chinese students must think that everyone does it in the west. I never have, but it's in almost every book.

On the other hand, if Eurocentric means teaching gramatically correct english, then I am all for it. This book wants to teach the students to speak "cool english" gramatically incorrect english. WHY!!! It won't help their english, and won't help them academically, especially on the band tests. Wo bu dong. Why teach them bad english!!![/quote]

[MW]

If you do not have at least a BA degree, do not come to China to teach English unless you are first provided with a "Z" visa.

To teach legally in China you must have a Foreign Experts Certificate or a Foreign Teachers Certificate. Most Provincial Governments will not issue such certificate without a BA degree at minimum, unless they are really hard up such as in Anhui, and other poverty stricken areas that pay an average of 2,800 rmb per month.

In major Provinces you may be recruited but will be advised to come to China on a tourist visa "L". That is the red flag that you will not get the required certificate but will work illegally as a tourist. A "Z" visa will not issue unless the employer can convince the Immigration office that a certificate has or will be issued.

Once you arrive on a tourist visa you are at the mercy of the employer and your troubles have just begun. They will never end until to exit China.

Do not come believing that a tourist visa will be converted once you arrive because that is in direct violation of the immigration law.

If a poor Province can send you a "Z" visa then you will have to live on almost nothing.

Be careful. Many have been burned before you and you would neither be the first nor the last.

[gerard]

The surgery Roger mentions is a fact. There was a recent scandal in Korea where mothers were sending kids for an operation to have their tongue shortened (at a big price) so they could say read instead of lead. Not making this up---I would blame doctors who are cashing in on this get-ahead mentality...Critics call it mutilation of kids and I don't disagree.

[yaco]

Thanks for your kind words, ( I am sounding like a Chinese student ) Arioch 36.

I agree that Roger and myself are in agreement .

I concede Roger has far more experience than I, but I was merely making general observations rather than discussing specific learning techniques.

My experience in China is that students are often considered by friends and family ' to be crazy' if they speak English. This is a ingrained attitude that will take time to cure.

Anyway Roger has sent a private message and I will respond.

[anigbrowl]

Astounding about the surgery. This kind of competition I would not have expected!

I don't want to go on and on about the grammar issue. I agree that teaching in china would require extra focus on the grammer; what I had in mind was that European ESL students have many structures in their own language analagous to English, which gives them an easy way to map things like verb conjugations onto their existing knowledge. I found I had better results in the past by admitting that English grammar is often inconsistent and arbitrary at the outset. As a hobbyist programmer, I must say I rather admire the elegance of Chinese - it's object-oriented

Thanks MV and Micheal for the two perspectives. I'm not very worried about the money - seems to me that that comes by sticking in for the long haul. I am worried about the Z visa though, working illegally in a country where one sticks out as a foreigner seems fairly risky. From what I read about Chinese negotiation style, eschewing legal standing doesn't look wise. I'm not against the idea of teaching in a poorer province, but I don't want to be on the breadline or too far from a city.

eddy

[anigbrowl]

That should have been MW, not MV. Darn!