Job Discussion Forums

[Kymro]

An article suggesting the English of British native speakers has been 'dumbed down':

http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/aleksandra_lojekmagdziarz/2008/01/english_for_dummies.html

[johnslat]

Dear Kymro,
That's a very interesting article - and it's not just "British native speakers" whose English has been "dumbed down."
I can't count the number of times I've had adult students in my ESL classes here in Santa Fe. New Mexico tell me something like this:

"But no one says it that way where I work."

or

"But I heard it that way on TV, the radio, in a movie."

So. I explain to them that even "native speakers" don't always use "proper English", that they are going to hear/read a lot of English that isn't "grammatically correct", that there are considerable differences between "spoken English" and "written English", that there are many different regional idioms, and that this is almost certainly true of every language, every country (to which they agree.)

And I give them some common examples. My favorite is when someone asks:

"Would you mind if I . . . . . . . ."

The answer is almost always: "Sure" or something like it.

And of course I always tell them that, hey, even we grammar teachers make mistakes (well, except for me, that is.)

Regards,
John

[spiral78]

Didja eat yet?
Waddaya got?
Wammeda fill it up?

My non-native spouse waited four months for me to arrive in Canada to ask me to explain the grammatical sense of the above

Ok, it's not just grammar - reductions are killers. But the grammar's particularly crazy in the first example...

[johnslat]

Dear spiral78,

I actually use your first two examples (Didja eat yet? Waddaya got) in class - only I write them on the board this way:

Jeet Jet?

and the second one, I write thusly:

Whacha got?

Regards,
John

[spiral78]

Maybe Canadian accents affect the sounds in the reductions?
These are pretty accurate, phonetically, for Alberta-speak!

But you're in the South, where speech is generally softer, I think (my parents have lived in Georgis for years, and their speech is markedly different from 'standard' NA English, however you'd like to define that!).

[soapdodger]

To "dumb down" ( a horrible term which I try not to use), simply means "to make intelligible to halfwits", in a language halfwits will understand and relate to. Native speakers in the UK have always diversified in grammar and vocabulary from the accepted norm, for example " I do be going down the shops". The difference between the situation prevalent today and that in the past is that in the appropriate circumstances 20 years ago, the speaker of the above sentence would have been able to render it in the correct form, whereas today the speaker would not have realised they had made a mistake.
This however is not the "dumbing down" of language: use of baby-talk and the terminology of "youth culture" in inappropriate settings, ie newscasts, is. It is the product of poor education and a society bereft of values, where to be inarticulate is to be acceptable, and to criticise people for their lack of learning is a heinous crime. There used to be an advert in British newspapers ( I think it may still be around) which had the heading "Shamed by your English?" and went on to promote a self-help course on grammar and spelling. Some time ago, people were shamed by their shortcomings and did something about them, in the process becoming better people. Today the answer to the question in that ad would be "Nah, f*ck off"
The deterioration of language is a reflection of the deterioration of thought. Most people today in so-called civilised societies have remarkably short attention spans, measurable in seconds, not minutes. If a person cannot concentrate on something for longer than a handful of seconds, how can they possibly develop a reasoned opinion about it? If people stop the process of deliberation and creating reasoned opinions, then they have actually stopped thinking. When thought of any developed kind has ceased, the next casualty is language, because the need to have a complex and flexible vocabulary to express more than basic wants has evaporated.
None of this is accidental. Morons are easy to manipulate, and as is patently obvious in countries like the UK and the US, given the right conditions are easy to manufacture, which is far more reliable than just hoping that nature will eliminate the intelligent.

[soapdodger]

And on a more lighthearted note, this helps to sum up one of the roots of the problem!
http://www.theonion.com/content/news/area_eccentric_reads_entire_book

[cspitzig]

When comparing how people today better themselves to how people in the past did, one should use rates of education first. This is much more effective than counting advertisements in newspapers for a single course. Statistics are easier to find for this--and much more significant. The percentages of people who have Bachelor's, Master's AND PhD's are much higher.

The percentages of people who read Literature(note the capital L) are probably lower, but this percentage might be among people who read for fun, instead of all people. Has the percentage of people(total population) who read Shakespeare decreased, or is it that people who read Shakespeare are less likely to be noticed among all the people who read Harry Potter or James Patterson? (Note: I don't know personally whether these books have much intellectual content in them, but am under the impression they do not)

America has had a strong anti-intellectual bent for a long time.

[spiral78]

One reason I haven't any urge to return, maybe...

[Glenski]

The poll is not asking the right question, IMO. You have to consider how often one speaks such dumbed-down English and in what setting or context and in what country.

[william wallace]

If native speakers speak "dumbed down" English, who would be speaking proper English ? Are you asking about well educated native speakers vs poorly educated ones ?

[coledavis]

The observations are based on the author's conversations with the uneducated. As un- or semi-educated people tend to produce an impoverished version of the language, hasn't this type of 'dumbing down' always existed? A more accurate criticism would be that of our university admissions tutors, who claim that freshers are unable to write grammatically.

[basiltherat]

I've been doing this 'reduction' thing for with trainees for years now. When you start doing / teaching it; especially at elementary level, they are horrified ... even complain that I'm not teaching properly until I tell them that's why when thay have a teacher, they can understand most of whet they hear while when watching a modern film, they understand virtually nothing. There's the evidence.
For trainees working in an industrial setting such as oil and gas and working in partnership with expat workers, this kind of training and practice is crucial; not so much using it but rather having to understand it.
best
basil

[Kymro]

[jwbhomer]

I agree entirely with the observations of Johnslat and Soapdodger. It bothers me that we see many examples of "dumbed down" -- or could we say "debased" -- English on these boards. How many times have we seen the argument that grammar and spelling do not matter. How many times have some of us been accused of being "grammar police"?

Of course there is more to "dumbing down" than making mistakes in grammar and spelling. "Like..." "y'know..." "don't go there..." There is a lack of precision and elegance in our use of our native language which I fear only oldsters like me and certain other posters miss.