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scot47
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 15343
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 Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 6:59 am Post subject: |
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vs says
"Marriage is an option not a requirement for happiness or a comfortable life."
That is not, as I understand it the Islamic position, I canot quote the Koran or the Hadith - but it is an obligation to marry. For men and women. |
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bje
Joined: 19 Jun 2005
Posts: 527
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| Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 7:46 am Post subject: |
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| scot47 wrote: |
vs says
"Marriage is an option not a requirement for happiness or a comfortable life."
That is not, as I understand it the Islamic position, I canot quote the Koran or the Hadith - but it is an obligation to marry. For men and women. |
For many a social obligation to marry exists, but I have had/have a number of female and male students with no intention of doing so. Some Emiratis (even from quite 'traditional' families) manage to get away with remaining single. This position may be more difficult to maintain in SA; I don't know... |
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007
Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 2684
Location: UK/Veteran of the Magic Kingdom
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| Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 10:37 am Post subject: |
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| veiledsentiments wrote: |
| Marriage is an option not a requirement for happiness or a comfortable life. |
I think marriage is not an option; it is a natural necessity for human race to progress.
Without marriage the human race will be exterminated.
If there were no marriage, VS or anybody else, would have never been existed!!
The marriage is the catalyst for 'continuity' and prosperity of the humanity .......
| Longton wrote: |
My question-
What happens if the number of unmarried men outnumber the unmarried women in a country? Certain states in India now have a serious gender imbalance. |
In this case the state should facilitate the marriage of its men with women from other states/countries which have the opposite problem (unmarried women outnumber unmarried men) and vis versa.
| HuntJuliet wrote: |
| What is this about making marriage a mathematical equation |
Marriage is not a mathematical equation, it is a �biological� and �emotional� equation. 
| HuntJu;iet wrote: |
| Well, you fall in love with who you fall in love with, and if you don't find someone to fall in love with who can fall in love with you too, it's not meant to be. |
To love or not to love, that is the question!
Juliet and Romeo ......
| Scot wrote: |
| That is not, as I understand it the Islamic position, I canot quote the Koran or the Hadith - but it is an obligation to marry. For men and women. |
If the man is capable, responsible, and trustful, then the marriage is an obligation in the sense of �preference� and not �by force�. If he does not get married then is not a �sin�. |
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Stephen Jones
Joined: 21 Feb 2003
Posts: 4124
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| Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 10:41 am Post subject: |
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There is an argument amongst theologians as to whether covering the hair is an obligation for Muslim women. Few of the theologians who think it is not are Saudi however.
Reminds me of the lovely argument I once saw in at the Kuwaiti Souk on Olaya Street in Riyadh between two members of the muttawa and two English ladies over where they should cover their hair or not, with the muttawaa swinging their sticks around and shouting imprecations in Arabic and the British women wagging their fingers at the Muttawaa and telling them their embassy had been informed by the Saudi government it was not an obligation, whilst the accompanying young policeman looked the other way and pretended it was nothing to do with him. |
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Stephen Jones
Joined: 21 Feb 2003
Posts: 4124
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| Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 10:50 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| This adds another layer to the debate: |
What is well-worth reading is the Archbishop's whole lecture. Rarely can something have been so grossly and wilfully misreported. Here's a link to the whole speech.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/07_02_08_islam.pdf |
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Cleopatra
Joined: 28 Jun 2003
Posts: 3657
Location: Tuamago Archipelago
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| Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 11:01 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| the British women wagging their fingers at the Muttawaa and telling them their embassy had been informed by the Saudi government it was not an obligation |
Few creatures are more distasteful than "Western" expats who suddenly get all self-righteous about 'rights' when it comes to their 'freedom' to let their ratty locks hang out. |
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Stephen Jones
Joined: 21 Feb 2003
Posts: 4124
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| Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 11:22 am Post subject: |
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Do you always have to be so disagreeable, Cleo?
The women had a quite justified grievance. They had gone to the extent of checking with their embassy what the dress requirements in Saudi were, and had followed what they were told. They then found themselves chased around the souk by two old men shouting unpleasantries at them in Arabic. |
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Cleopatra
Joined: 28 Jun 2003
Posts: 3657
Location: Tuamago Archipelago
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| Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 11:58 am Post subject: |
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[quote] They had gone to the extent of checking with their embassy what the dress requirements in Saudi were, and had followed what they were told.
How can you be so sure? Is it the official policy of the British embassy to tell their citizens how exactly they must dress in KSA? In any case, the British embassy is no more an authority on Saudi legal matters than the Saudi embassy is on British legal matters.
| Quote: |
| They then found themselves chased around the souk by two old men shouting unpleasantries at them in Arabic. |
Few Brits I know speak any Arabic at all, so it's highly unlikely these women would have understood what the mutawween were saying.
But yes, I am aware that many mutaween can be extremely unpleasant, particularly if they are dealing with a couple of rude women 'wagging their fingers at them' and claiming - in a foreign language - to know more about Saudi law than they do. But I just fail to see why so many expats feel the need to make an issue over such matters. I know plenty of women who do not cover their hair, but when asked to do so by a mutawwa, they simply comply and remove the scarf when the mutawwa is out of sight - usually a matter of minutes, if not seconds. By any normal standards, surely less unpleasant then spending at least the same amount of time 'wagging your fingers' at the mutaween.
It sounds (but for many people clearly is not) obvious, but if you're going to get all indignant about minor "Western freedoms' you really should earn your tax-free salary somewhere other than KSA. |
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trapezius
Joined: 13 Aug 2006
Posts: 1670
Location: Land of Culture of Death & Destruction
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| Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 12:53 pm Post subject: |
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You missed this, Lady Mutawwa:
| Quote: |
| their embassy had been informed by the Saudi government it was not an obligation |
So the Saudi Government told one thing to the British Embassy (and the women were adhering to that), and the mutawwas were trying to enforce something entirely different. As you always tell others, reading is key.
And this is not new, we all know there is an unspoken conflict between the gov and the mutawwa establishment, with the mutawwas almost always going overboard and enforcing more than what the gov requires.
| Quote: |
Few Brits I know speak any Arabic at all, so it's highly unlikely these women would have understood what the mutawween were saying.
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Are you really that obtuse? It is not hard for a man to tell you to cover your hair in a foreign language by doing simple hand gestures (which is what the mutawwas do anyway, when they encounter expats).
I am guessing these women understood the hand gestures because they were not blind.
| Quote: |
| I know plenty of women who do not cover their hair, but when asked to do so by a mutawwa, they simply comply and remove the scarf when the mutawwa is out of sight - usually a matter of minutes, if not seconds. |
Is that what you also do? So you prefer dishonesty and deception over honesty?
| Quote: |
| But yes, I am aware that many mutaween can be extremely unpleasant, particularly if they are dealing with a couple of rude women 'wagging their fingers at them' and claiming |
Right, they are only 'unpleasant' when white women are wagging their fingers at them... perhaps you have missed the hundreds of stories over the years of extrajudicial detention, beatings, kidnappings of single women, and even murders? How about being strip-searched? Just 'unpleasant', right? And being beaten to death?
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Now, to those who condone what happened to that Saudi woman in Riyadh at Starbucks, please read below and then answer my questions:
http://www.arabnews.com/?page=1§ion=0&article=106499&d=5&m=2&y=2008
Here, I will quote the most important things:
| Quote: |
| �I am the government,� Yara quoted him as saying. He then ordered her to come with him. |
| Quote: |
Yara described how the commission member had to wave a taxi down to begin the hours-long process of punishing the woman for having a cup of coffee in a public place with a colleague. When she hesitated about entering the taxi, she said the commission member threatened her.
�I am the government and you have to get in,� she said, recounting the words of the commission member. |
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| Inside the taxi, Yara said the commission member snatched her phone from her as she tried to call her husband. |
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| �Your husband is no good,� she said, recounting the words of the commission members. �He should not have let you do this.� |
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| Last year, the Interior Ministry issued a ruling that the commission cannot detain people and must pass them on to the police. |
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�He told me I needed to fingerprint this paper stating that I got my mobile phone and bag back,� she said. �When I told him my phone was still confiscated, he threatened me: �Just do it!��
She said that she fingerprinted the paper under duress. |
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�They would not let me contact my husband,� she said. �I told them... please... my husband will have a heart attack if he does not know what has happened to me.�
She was not given a phone to call her husband. |
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| She was not given access to a lawyer. |
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| �They stripped me,� she said. �They checked that I had nothing with me and threw me in the cell with all the others.� |
So now, the 2 Saudi apologists in here (007 and Lady Mutawwa), tell me, how can you admonish the woman, condone what the mutawwas did, and reconcile the quotes above with the following:
1) "Kingdom of Humanity" (official motto of Saudi Arabia)
2) It is not against Shariah to be with an unrelated male in public, and the country repeatedly says its constitution is the Qur'an and Shariah.
3) The Mutawwas were breaking the law themselves which instructs them to hand over suspects to the police and forbids them from detaining them, not to mention all the moral and humanitarian laws they broke by the way they treated her.
"BUT IT IS THE LAW... YOU CAN'T BE ALONE WITH A MAN!!!"
That's your answer, isn't it?
Well then suppose, there is a country with a law which says that if a woman has been unmarried till the age of 35, a bunch of gov men will come to her house and gang-rape her.
So all the rape victims in this country start complaining and crying... what are you going to tell them? That it is the law, so they should have gotten married by 35?
There is a difference between just and unjust laws. Unjust laws and rules need to be quashed. And the only way to do it is by protesting, and that can only happen when enough people have been affected by such unjust laws. And I am glad this woman is a Saudi, because that would only increase the opposition to the mutawwa system since a local woman was abused and thrown into jail. But it really doesn't matter where she was from, insofar as the application of the "law" is concerned.
Really, all the apologists have no legs to stand on.
The Islamic ruling concerns a man and a woman in PRIVATE. Sitting in the family section of Starbucks is far from private. She was covered. There were other customers and waiters around. And they were talking BUSINESS. What is the problem? Even the Saudi law talks about "khulwa", which is seclusion.
SO SHE WAS NOT BREAKING ANY LAWS, WHETHER ISLAMIC OR SAUDI.
And what about threats, lies, pushing, denying phone calls, forced confessions, strip searching?
That's A-OK with the apologists, isn't it? |
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Cleopatra
Joined: 28 Jun 2003
Posts: 3657
Location: Tuamago Archipelago
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| Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 1:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
You missed this, Lady Mutawwa:
Quote:
their embassy had been informed by the Saudi government it was not an obligation
So the Saudi Government told one thing to the British Embassy (and the women were adhering to that), and the mutawwas were trying to enforce something entirely different. As you always tell others, reading is key. |
Yawn. Now, I know you're bitter because your familial and/or personal burdens oblige you to stay in a country you despise, but please don't misread what I said. I'm sure you know as well as I do that Saudi law is notoriously vague and open to interpretation. If indeed the Saudi government has made a definitive statement that non-Muslim women do not need to wear the headscarf, and if the British embassy is privy to that information, why is it not made official, as I am assuming it is not.
| Quote: |
| And this is not new, we all know there is an unspoken conflict between the gov and the mutawwa establishment, with the mutawwas almost always going overboard and enforcing more than what the gov requires. |
This is true to a degree, but is rather an oversimplification of the issue. The "Saudi government" does not speak as one, and there are some very senior members of said 'gov' who are extremely conservative and highly supportive of the mutaween.
| Quote: |
Quote:
Few Brits I know speak any Arabic at all, so it's highly unlikely these women would have understood what the mutawween were saying.
Are you really that obtuse? It is not hard for a man to tell you to cover your hair in a foreign language by doing simple hand gestures (which is what the mutawwas do anyway, when they encounter expats). |
Possibly. I'm just basing my comments on what Stephen wrote about the use of offensive language in Arabic, so direct your questions to him. As you always tell others, reading is key.
| Quote: |
Quote:
I know plenty of women who do not cover their hair, but when asked to do so by a mutawwa, they simply comply and remove the scarf when the mutawwa is out of sight - usually a matter of minutes, if not seconds.
Is that what you also do? So you prefer dishonesty and deception over honesty?
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Since you ask, no, it's not 'what I do', but in any case your trying to claim that these women were acting out of some high principle is laughable. Presumably, they, like everyone else who chooses to apply for a visa here, signed a form where they undertook to "abide by the laws and customs of Saudi Arabia". Surely if they were so chock-full of high principles, they should have refused to sign that form and earned their generous salary elsewhere? And were these women wearing abayas? Assuming they were, what happened to their lofty feminist principles?
| Quote: |
| Right, they are only 'unpleasant' when white women are wagging their fingers at them... perhaps you have missed the hundreds of stories over the years of extrajudicial detention, beatings, kidnappings of single women, and even murders? How about being strip-searched? Just 'unpleasant', right? And being beaten to death? |
Like so many of our male posters, unfortunately you allow your emotions to control you. It's great that you have so much time on your hands to construct lengthy strawman arguments, but since they have nothing at all to do with what I wrote, there is no reason for me to waste my time addressing them. As you always tell others, reading is key.
| Quote: |
Now, to those who condone what happened to that Saudi woman in Riyadh at Starbucks |
Again, those male hormones getting in the way. Your life must be even more awful than I'd assumed if you need to spend so much time taking out your frustrations on a chatboard by inventing 'opponents' in your own mind. |
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sheikh radlinrol
Joined: 30 Jan 2007
Posts: 1222
Location: Spain
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| Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 2:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Why DOES Cleopatra have to be so unpleasant? Or do my male hormones make me touchy? |
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bje
Joined: 19 Jun 2005
Posts: 527
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| Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 2:04 pm Post subject: |
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| sheikh radlinrol wrote: |
| Why DOES Cleopatra have to be so unpleasant? Or do my male hormones make me touchy? |
From one guy to another, testosterone overload appears to be running riot on this thread. Might be a touch of old-fashioned misogyny too...Trapezius may have neglected to take his second Valium of the day. I took mine and am feeling just fine. |
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veiledsentiments
Joined: 20 Feb 2003
Posts: 17644
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 2:18 pm Post subject: |
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First off, I avoided Saudi Arabia for two reasons. One being that I couldn't drive a car, which to me is a necessity not a luxury. (a very American stance, I know) But, the most important was that I did not wish to comply with the dress code. I preferred to live and work in the countries that recognize the rights of non-Muslims and non-locals.
That said, if I had gone there, I would have, like Cleopatra, never left my flat without my abaya and head cover. And if one isn't willing to do that, one should NOT go there. While the tale of the two rather pompous British ladies being good Colonial overlords had a bit of humor to it. It mostly to me demonstrated the arrogance and self-righteousness shown by too many Westerners wherever they are.
VS
(on edit: yes... it's the testosterone for sure. ) |
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Cleopatra
Joined: 28 Jun 2003
Posts: 3657
Location: Tuamago Archipelago
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| Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 2:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
I preferred to live and work in the countries that recognize the rights of non-Muslims and non-locals.
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While KSA is obviously an extreme case, I would say that in all Gulf countries you do to a large extent have to abide by Islamic laws. For example, I believe you lived in Kuwait, a country which bans alcohol to everyone, regardless of their faith. Plus, even in the oh-so-liberal UAE, strict censorship applies, much of it governed by Islamic notions of what is acceptable.
But certainly I accept your point about how one should weigh up their own personal limits before accepting a job anywhere in the world. For example, I have a low tolerance for vulgarity and sleaze, and would therefore never choose to work in Dubai. If you're not prepared to live with the well-known restrictions which KSA imposes on all residents, go elsewhere. It really is - or should be - as simple as that. |
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veiledsentiments
Joined: 20 Feb 2003
Posts: 17644
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 2:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Cleopatra wrote: |
| For example, I have a low tolerance for vulgarity and sleaze, and would therefore never choose to work in Dubai. |
Ditto on that one. Same reason that I would avoid Las Vegas in the US.
VS |
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