Job Discussion Forums

[nomadder]

I often find myself making decisions based on money. How to make more or not spend too much. But I think there should be more to decision-making than that.

I realized I probably would have enjoyed being abroad more if I'd forked out for cable or my own computer or even over-priced travel at Christmas(my longest holiday). I often found myself saving for an uncertain future and hence not always enjoying the present. Maybe I would have stayed longer and ended up with more money anyway.

There's also deciding on a job in the first place. Maybe you shouldn't always think about the salary. What about job satisfaction and location, a decent boss, fun coworkers/students etc?

Our Western work ethic often brainwashes us into making choices that may not always make us happiest. What are the stats on depression and other mental problems these days?

Here's a quote from the Japan thread from Deconstructor in Montreal:

"What I meant was that it is great to work overseas if your aim is to understand different cultures, travel and see the world. On the other hand if you're trying to build a teaching career back home Canada/US, then overseas experience counts for very little even if you have 10 years of experience."

Should we always be thinking of climbing some sort of ladder or should we just enjoy ourselves and go where we want, do what we want? Especially those who aren't supporting families. Does the idea of "do what you love and the money will follow" really work?

[James_T_Kirk]

[denise]

I don't believe that "happiness/living for the moment" and "practicality/moving up the career ladder/saving money" are necessarily mutually exclusive.

Regarding deconstructor's quote about teaching abroad not helping towards a career back home: wouldn't it depend largely on both the sort of teaching you're doing abroad and the sort of teaching you want to do back home? Maybe I'm just ridiculously lucky, but what I am doing now is not only my "dream job" on paper in terms of context, age, resources, colleagues, etc., but should give me plenty of relevant experience for what I want to do when I eventually return home. Dismissing all EFL teaching as meaningless just denies the variety of the field and the many opportunities there are out there.

Yeah, I had to make some tough choices about where I wanted to teach--Japan was not at my top of "dream destinations"--but the overall package--job, living environment, salary, friends/colleagues, relevance for my future--is pretty nice. I came to Japan primarily for the money. Not that I crave it, but I do have some nasty loans to pay off. I would not, however, take a job ONLY for the money if I could not see myself actually enjoying both the job and the lifestyle.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again--I love this wacky field of ours!

d

[dmb]

I'd say all of the above with regard to this wacky field. I entered it because of something else (travel), then for about a decade I continued because of love now I'm in the ME because of money
I hope this balance of all of them will continue

[shmooj]

This will all depend on what your goals are in life.

For example, if in the long long term, you want to be self supported doing voluntary work in some developing country then you need money now to put towards that somehow. You also need to develop the cross cultural skills that will enable you to cope with that kind of situation.

If, in the long term, you want to be self supported watching TV in some developed nation you need lots more money now to put towards that.

List your life goals and the rest should follow from that. However, it is more than likely that, esp if you are in your 20s, you might not have given that much thought.

Oh, and don't forget that you'll more than likely also be pushing up daisies within fifty or so years. That kind of helps to get priorities right I find

One thing I have found though in living abroad is that you may never get the opportunity to do what you can do now again. In spending a fortune going to Hokkaido in northern Japan to ski one year, we decided that it was now or never and we had the cash to do it. Once I passed up the opportunity to swim with dolphins because of a) expense and b) time constraints. Regret this and should have done it. Today I would not have missed the time nor the money and I would have had a richer experience of life.

SO, look around you and see what opportuntiies you have now which you may not have in the future. Hopefully you can see further than Cable TV!

[foster]

The idea of "do what you want and the money will follow" is interesting but I dont know how much faith I would put in it. I too am lucky, since my career in Hong Kong is proper high school teaching and therefore may help me when I get home.

another quote I heard once was "Do what you love and you will never work a day in your life". Well, I love teaching, but somedays it feels like more work than it is worth. Today for example is my h&^^ day, with 4 oral lessons where NO ONE wants to speak english. *sigh* So rough.

I went to Japan to get ahead financially, pay off debt and start worrying less about money and enjoy my life more. It happened. I have cable Tv in HK, I travel, I have savings. All in all, I feel pretty lucky here.

This is an interesting profession we have chosen with so many options and advantages. In a way, I am sorry my time in Japan was marred by working for Nova, but it was an experience. ESL is so diverse and so interesting. For me, no two days are ever the same.

And, yeah, the $$$$ in HK is damn good!!

[nomadder]

Shmooj the reason I mention cable TV etc. is that I should have had more comforts of home to make living abroad better. Keep in mind that I living alone(I do believe you're married) and was the only teacher at my school and I lived in the burbs. Weeknights could be a little boring. Most of the foreigners I met around town were on the Nova-drink-your-salary plan so all in all my social life was a bit lacking despite having some Japanese friends.

Thanks so much James for your comment on my thread-much appreciated. Sounds like you have a plan.

Denise I'd like to know more about your great situation and your plans for when you go home. Also where did you plan to go besides Japan? Glad to hear you have a job that rocks.

[Gordon]

Nomadder, I too like the topic question. I have a family to support, so other issues come into play. Of course money is one as I have 3 mouths to feed. A safe environment is also important as I don't want to woory about malaria or health issues. Thirdly, education for my daughter comes into play and I'm not that thrilled about it here in Japan. Another factor is holidays and work hours (right now this is a dream job in that category). When I look at a contract offered by a school, I care more about housing and medical than I used to when I was single. As long as I have enough money to get by, than that's OK. We all have priorities and they change throughout our life. I'm really glad that my wife is supportive and loves living abroad, despite its many cahllenges, as much as I do.

I disagree with the above quote by Deconstructor. Teaching abroad has many merits, perhaps not in a public school, but what about as a DOS or teacher trainer.

[denise]

Nomadder--

The thing that I like so much about my job is that it is an academic context--part of an American university. Though I find it difficult to give grades, and though not all of the students are as motivated as they could be, I personally derive more satisfaction from it than I did when I was at a private language school. I like teaching students how to write papers and give presentations. I haven't, unfortunately, got a crystal-clear idea of what exactly I want to do when I head back to the States, but I do want a similar academic environment--ideally an intensive English program for pre-university students (which would be almost exactly like what I'm doing now).

My job rocks in theory, but there are a few flaws in reality... (not enough to outweigh its strengths, thankfully!)

As far as other places I thought about teaching--if money/student loans weren't an issue, I would head down to South America. And if I didn't have passport issues, I would love to go to Greece or Spain. Damn, two strikes against me! Before deciding on Japan, I also looked into Taiwan and Vietnam, both of which might still be attractive options when I decide to leave Japan.

d

[scot47]

Making provision for the future for some people means developing an obsession with not spending anything. I do not know about Japan but in Saudi Arabia over the years I have met lots of individuals of different nationalities who live like misers.

They forget how to spend. Never mind satellite TV these people won't buy toilet paper if they can steal it from the staff toilet.

Of course we should try to have goal and save something, but to turn into Silas Marner in his miser stage is a fate worth than death.

Carpe diem! Seize the day!

[been_there]

Gonna have to agree with Denise on this one: I'm doing what I love AND I'm moving up the ladder.

I was a fresh-out-of-University punk in China; I did an MA, did the (shudder) EF DOS bit (only for a while: moving up the ladder), Now I'm THE MAN at a University.

I will never go back to the video store (see "blowing a gasket" thread).

[guest of Japan]

This topic is well-timed as it coincides with my first day back at the job which I have well documented my loathing for. All day my only thought was that I should be teaching in an American High School and not some sad disgrace for a high school in Japan. I wasn't thinking in terms of money, but rather job satisfaction. I also may not be as geared toward travel as many of the other posters here may be, although I do like it. Despite my everyday bumblings of the language, Japan is no longer exotic for me.

The reality of living in another country has basically taught me that eventually everywhere begins to show all those traits that cause us to leave home in the first place. I'm sure that like many of the other Dave's addicts here, I tend to place an over-emphasis on work to provide some sort of stability to my psychie. When work goes bad, I go bad. I'm not sure I can continue going though life being a periphery character in the worlds of others.

In my mapping a career thread scot47 termed EFL a sequence of jobs rather than a career. That point really struck me. I think that in fifty years, if I live that long, I will be much more satisfied by what I have done than where I have been.

I intend to do one more year in Japan, at a different school, to save money and arrange my wife's green card. After that I can't guarantee that I'll live in another country again.

I intend to pursue a masters in TESOL apon returning for three reasons. 1. I find it to be academically interesting. 2. I enjoy opening up the world to student future possibilities with such a concrete need. 3. It will enable me to return to Japan to work at higher paying jobs if my Japanese wife proves unsuccessful at living in the US. It has the added benefit in that I'm not limited to Japan if I were to ever get the travel bug again.

As I look down the road righ now I see my life unfolding in this way. Return for the MA in TESOL. Find a good teaching job and teach history and ESL. Obtain a teaching certificate and BA in English and teach English as well. Finally a PhD in curriculum development with a specialization in the integration of curricula. I think this would satisfy me much more than counting the countries I've lived in ever will.

[Wolf]

Cable TV? I had it in Japan, but I ended up buying a Japanese Playstation 2 to use instead. At least I could pass off my video game hours as "study" (and it played DVDs.)

Have it here to, but it's not all it's cracked up to be. Now that I have a computer, my TV has sat neglected for about 5 months.

I like what I do, hence the MA (in progress. Dangit, want paper in hand and knowledge in head now.)

I can relate to what Guest of Japan said about finding things about my host nation that were the same as the reasons that I left in the first place, as well as using work as a greater source of satisfaction than many people do.

I think that finding a social niche in a different country is difficult, but not impossible. I'm speaking from experience here. And from the experiences of others.

I can also relate to scot47's misers. Yes, Japan has a similar disease. I never saw anyone boosting toilet paper, but I did hear people who made 600 000 yen a month (various part time jobs/workaholic schedule) complain about a 2500 yen or so public television bill. 600 000 yen is I think still more than US$5000. If you live in a big city and have connections and are willing to do it, you can work all the time and make money. But I for one never want to live like that. I want to go swimming with shmooj's dolphins, and sieze scot47's day!

Climb the coporate ladder? No thanks. EFL teaching in China for the rest of my life is more appealing to me than that. Some people like it, some people do it because they feel they have to, and that's fine. Someone out there has to do such jobs. But I know that I wouldn't be happy doing that.

Overseas experience doesn't count for anything? I think the answer is yes and no. If you drift around as a backpacker teacher for a few years, never having any serious interests or long term goals in mind, and then wind up home, then probably not. But if you have a goal to work towards, then your experience is as valid as your ability to sell yourself, exploit your other abilities/training, and take initiative.

That last paragraph is all second hand, though.

[Roger]

I toured my current host country for one year and a half before I began scouring it for employment opportunities; in fact, I find it unfair for the kids of prosperous Western nations to enjoy the privilege of exploring other countries in exchange for "teaching" English. It's unfair when you think that this special right is available only for English speakers!
It means only English speakers can "immerse" themselves in foreign cultures - without paying for this privilege. The reality is that TEFLing opens a narrowly-defined part of a foreign country up for inspection - just like touring foreign countries opens them tp a certaom extemt fpr a traveller's eyes.
We are witnessing the emergence of a two-tiered tourist society - the affluent who spend big and travel where fashion dictates to travel, and the poor who work their way from destination to destination.
Both move within their own castes, despising each other.

[Lynn]

Neither love nor money. I am so sick of doing more work than my fellow ESL teachers, but only getting paid $12 an hour,while they get paid $35 or $55. They don't have master degrees. They don't even have an TESL cerficate like I do.

It's all about the breaks and good timing!

Sorry for the rant.