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Prospect_Ave
Joined: 12 Mar 2007
Posts: 42
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 Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 4:02 am Post subject: |
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| MrQuack wrote: |
And, finally, I don't wish to offend you, but on a contructive note, I could tell from your post that you aren't a native English speaker. Your post doesn't have a natural "flow" that one would expect from a native English speaker. |
I'm not sure as to whether you're referring to his polished English or your reading skills, curiously, at a very low ebb. People from down under are notorious for being under par for that matter.
Don't despair, Josez. Your search for unbiased employers might just take you some more time. The right credentials and a confident presence will get you a job soon. |
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ratsareeatingmybrain
Joined: 19 Jul 2007
Posts: 35
Location: lisbon
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| Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 2:06 am Post subject: |
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He probably got a job somewhere else long ago.
For what it's worth, in 7 years in Poland I never met one single non-native speaker who wasn't Polish working in a language school. Not once. |
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JZer
Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3898
Location: Pittsburgh
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| Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 2:55 pm Post subject: |
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| For what it's worth, in 7 years in Poland I never met one single non-native speaker who wasn't Polish working in a language school. Not once. |
Well if the guy wants to get a job as a non-native speaker he should come to Taiwan. I have seen Turks, Polish, etc working in language schools in Taiwan.
The funny thing is that Taiwanese think that all whites can speak English. They hire Turks and pay them 33 percent more even though some of them cannot speak English as well as the Taiwanese teacher's in the school. |
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Extraordinary Rendition
Joined: 09 Feb 2008
Posts: 127
Location: third stone from the Sun
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| Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 4:11 pm Post subject: |
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Part of being a native speaker of a language is thoroughly knowing the connotations of common terms. In the phrase "so-called native speakers", "so-called" imputes negativity toward the noun phrase it is modifying, "native speakers". Furthermore, "native speaker" is the term used in the English language to describe people whose first language is English. The phrase, "so-called native speakers" is an oxymoron (unless, of course, it was meant insultingly, which, I suspect from the writer's general tone, it was).
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| But it seems, that they would rather hire an uneducated and unexperienced "native speaker"... |
[Emphasis added]
What in the world are the quotation marks around "native speaker" (here I am using quotation marks correctly) in the quotation above supposed to indicate? OP, as Jimi Hendrix put it, "Have you ever been experienced?". |
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JZer
Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3898
Location: Pittsburgh
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| Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 4:13 am Post subject: |
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| But it seems, that they would rather hire an uneducated and unexperienced "native speaker"... |
While I do believe that there is too much hiring of inexperienced native speakers, of course how does one get experience without it anyways?
The idea that native speakers are uneducated is a little off the mark. I believe that most native speakers have at least graduate high school or university. They have had 12 or more years of formal schooling in English. That is far more education in English than most non-native speakers. Excluding the non-native speakers that have lived in English speaking countries, most non-natives speakers have no were the vocabulary that native speakers have. |
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Extraordinary Rendition
Joined: 09 Feb 2008
Posts: 127
Location: third stone from the Sun
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 5:04 pm Post subject: |
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| I'm insulted by the OP's attitude, and I don't want to let this thread R.I.P. (Comprenez vous, OP? [hyphen omitted, because I'm NOT a French native speaker. HA!]. Many native ENGLISH speakers speak multiple languages, too!) He's arrogant, and assumes he controls the English language to native-speaker level, yet his posts belie that claim. I hope he's working in a bar in Amsterdam somewhere, rather than inflicting himself upon naive English-language learners somewhere in Eastern Europe. |
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JZer
Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3898
Location: Pittsburgh
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 11:12 pm Post subject: |
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| That is not what is truly insulting. What is truly insulting is when I see some language schools in Taiwan hire Polish, Turkish, and other people as native English teachers and pay them twice the salary as local Taiwanese who's English is as good as those white Europeans(excluding the UK). |
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Mike_2007
Joined: 24 Apr 2007
Posts: 349
Location: Bucharest, Romania
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| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 5:20 am Post subject: |
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| JZer wrote: |
| That is not what is truly insulting. What is truly insulting is when I see some language schools in Taiwan hire Polish, Turkish, and other people as native English teachers and pay them twice the salary as local Taiwanese who's English is as good as those white Europeans(excluding the UK). |
Some of the Irish are getting quite good at the lingo too  |
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ecocks
Joined: 06 Nov 2007
Posts: 899
Location: Gdansk, Poland
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| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 9:18 am Post subject: I wouldn't say |
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| JZer wrote: |
| That is not what is truly insulting. What is truly insulting is when I see some language schools in Taiwan hire Polish, Turkish, and other people as native English teachers and pay them twice the salary as local Taiwanese who's English is as good as those white Europeans(excluding the UK). |
that this is "insulting" really. More like an indication of their (the schools) basic ethics and honesty in representing their school and product. If the non-native-speaker teacher's grasp of English is demonstrably better than other, local teachers there seems nothing wrong with paying higher wages for better performance. The ethical and honesty issues would revolve around identifying them appropriately as something other than a "Native" teacher. That said, hiring quality teachers is part of what defines one business over another. So, maybe there is a new level of teacher (honestly, I have heard this phrase from a couple of other teachers and administrators) - Near-Native Speaker. These people are often dedicated and have studied grammar extensively while also acquiring high-level language skills through living in a foreign country and undergoing fullimmersion. I work with a woman who is Polish but lived in England for 8 years and is married to an American. It was a week or two before I realized she was not an English gal. Also, last week I met a Brit native speaker who had to tell me 4-5 times his name and where he was from, very awkward. I think he had what is called a broad, Midlands accent or maybe over toward the western side of the country. |
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ratsareeatingmybrain
Joined: 19 Jul 2007
Posts: 35
Location: lisbon
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| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 11:23 am Post subject: |
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| I have problems understanding some UK accents too, but the bottom line is that the Midlands twang was real, native British English. People sometimes forget that most British people don't always speak 'correct', clear, precise RP. |
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JZer
Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3898
Location: Pittsburgh
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| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 2:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| If the non-native-speaker teacher's grasp of English is demonstrably better than other, local teachers there seems nothing wrong with paying higher wages for better performance. |
I think the point is that often it is not. I would accept someone from another country that had a B.A. or an M.A. from an English speaking country but we are often talking about Turks, Africans, etc who have only lived in their home country and in Taiwan. |
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ecocks
Joined: 06 Nov 2007
Posts: 899
Location: Gdansk, Poland
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| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 3:33 pm Post subject: Not sure |
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what magic effect an MA or BA has on the recipient. I have met Ugandans and Jamaicans who speak English more clearly and precisely than native speakers from England, America, Canada and Australia. The completion of a bachelor's degree has some bearing on a TEFL career due to work requirements in some countries as well as serving as an indication of academic discipline. However, the point I am talking about is just as I said, IF the teacher's grasp of English is demonstrably better than the local teachers then I see nothing wrong with hiring them at different levels of pay compared to locals and bordering upon passport-carrying native speakers. IF the school is presenting these people as native speaker teachers at higher rates, then I have a bit of an issue but that can happen in any business. It's called truth in advertising and selling what you really claim to be selling.
You sound like you have a problem with a particular manager/director or a practice among a group of them rather than a situation which is widespread across all of TEFL-dom. |
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Kootvela
Joined: 22 Oct 2007
Posts: 513
Location: Lithuania
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| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 8:50 pm Post subject: |
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| JZer wrote: |
| That is not what is truly insulting. What is truly insulting is when I see some language schools in Taiwan hire Polish, Turkish, and other people as native English teachers and pay them twice the salary as local Taiwanese who's English is as good as those white Europeans(excluding the UK). |
Welcome to my world!  |
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JZer
Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3898
Location: Pittsburgh
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| Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 12:55 am Post subject: |
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Kootvela,
What kind of non-native speakers do they hire in Lithuania? |
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JZer
Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3898
Location: Pittsburgh
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| Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 12:59 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| However, the point I am talking about is just as I said, IF the teacher's grasp of English is demonstrably better than the local teachers then I see nothing wrong with hiring them at different levels of pay compared to locals and bordering upon passport-carrying native speakers. |
Well, my point is that they are not in Taiwan. Maybe in China, hiring a Norwegian, German, etc is acceptable but in Taiwan, well at least in Taipei I have not met many English teachers who's English is any less superior than a non-native English speaking European. The American influence is strong in Taiwan and Taiwanese use a lot of English text books in college. |
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