Job Discussion Forums

[spiral78]

JZer, in Lithuania they sometimes hire Lithuanian English teachers (like Kootvela).

[Kootvela]

[blackmagicABC]

LOL.
The only reason a "native speaker" would analyze a person's posts on a forum to prove that they are not as fluent, is when they have nothing better to do or ....no comment. Come on...its vs it's??? On a forum?
how many native speakers write "would of"?
Does the fact that I didnt write didn't or use a upper case H for how many in the previous question mean I am not a native speaker?
Dude,
I hope you got a great job. I know it is four years ago but I would employ someone like you immediately. Just a pity I am in Taiwan.

[Extraordinary Rendition]

[madison01]

I used to work in Poland (until '05) and I was a DoS who hired for the school. There were 2 major issues when hiring non-native speakers, the first was that most schools advertised "Native Speakers". I could hire Polish teachers but only for the beginners and for classes that had specifically agreed to having a Polish teacher.

The students themselves tend to dictate the "native speaker" requirement. We could push the meaning and countries which had English as an official language were included (India, Zimbabwe, South Africa) but, unfortunately, I would receive CVs from Dutch, Swedish, Danish and Norwegian teachers, all of whom would, I'm certain, have made excellent teachers but if I'd put them in a classroom and the students had known that they were from non-English speaking countries, regardless of their language skills, certificates and experience, the students would have complained. As the school advertised native they'd have had every right to expect refunds or substantial discounts.

I know this guy's probably doing well somewhere else now, but the system still remains in a lot of countries I visit (I'm sort of on the periphery of EFL now I travel around promoting schools in the UK so I see a lot of EFL schools in a lot of countries).

[JZer]

[madison01]

Of course I think the point is that in some countries there is really no need for non-native foreign English teachers. Just like the fact that the English level in the Netherlands is so high that even native speakers cannot find jobs unless they are highly trained teachers. I don't know the level of English in Poland so well but why hire someone from Norway when you can also find some Polish people who speak English well.

I would hire Polish nationals as English teachers who taught English better (and knew the language better than most new English teachers and a lot of more experienced ones too) than natives. The standard in Poland is nowhere near that of The Netherlands nor the Scandinavian countries. However, they do have very good Linguistics programmes in their universities and turn out excellent speakers/translators etc.

The problem I had was a large amount of schools to compete against for teachers and a lowering number of good native teachers. Knowing that Dutch and Scandanavian teachers probably had excellent language knowledge, no accent and all the qualifications was frustrating in a native only school, I ended up hiring inexperienced over experienced teachers. Had I been able to hire Poles to teach in all classes I would have done.

[No Moss]

This is a good thread with a lot of good ideas. When I worked in Taiwan, there was a Ukrainian English teacher who spoke the most faultless American English I have ever heard a non-native speaker speak. (Gee, that was a tongue-twister!) I swear, you would not have been able to distinguish her from a girl from Illinois, where she had spent a short time. She was exceptional, though. She was the exception that proves the rule.

Native speakers have their problems with written English, as a tour down any thread on Dave's will soon disclose. And some accents are not ones that you'd want to emulate. Further, many casual native teachers don't have very good teaching skills and aren't really interested in acquiring them.

On the other hand, it's almost impossible for a non-native to acquire the verbal skills--call it the ear for the language--of a native speaker. If you can combine those with good teaching skills and a sufficient skill in the written language, you just can't beat a native speaker in a classroom.

In the end, a native speaker is a model against which students can measure their skill level.

[JZer]

[madison01]

The question of knowing English better is a tricky one. Of course Polish English teachers and one's from Norway etc might understand grammar better but that does not necessarly mean then know when to use certain words. The problem is that even non-natives who understand all grammar aspects and can explain them can lack the knowledge of when to use certain words.

I think I need to clarify the use of 'Knowledge' as a term. Obviously, natives have a deeper 'inate' knowledge of vocabulary and grammar compared to a non-native no matter how long, intensively etc. they may have studied English or lived in an English speaking country. However, in terms of meta-language natives usually have little or no knowledge of their own Language. Ask the Average British person (I can't comment on US/Canadian/Australian/Kiwi) what a participle adjective is and they'd think you were speaking a foreign language. Ths UK's education in English doesn't go beyond 'A Verb is a doing word'

[madison01]

On the other hand, it's almost impossible for a non-native to acquire the verbal skills--call it the ear for the language--of a native speaker. If you can combine those with good teaching skills and a sufficient skill in the written language, you just can't beat a native speaker in a classroom.

All true, to a point. The majority of English classes don't stray into the realms of teaching a native English level of English. From beginner through to CAE, being a native is neither here nor there in terms of language "Knowledge". Beyond that and I believe there are areas of knowledge that go beyond meta-language and in to a need for an "ear for the language".

Of all the classes I taught only 3 or 4 ever stretched me in terms of teaching language that was deeper than that of "Book" language. It was those classes that I feel that native-speakers were more necessary.

[JZer]

[JZer]

[madison01]

"Of course Steven Pinker and many linguist would argue that one does not acquire a foreign language by having grammar rules explained to you or having someone correct your errors. So the idea that someone who understands the grammar rules would be a better teacher may not hold to be true"

Steve Pinker and many linguists would be right, to a point. We don't acquire our 'native' language through grammar rules, you do have language corrected though. Children go through phases of making mistakes when learning that parents automatically correct after a period of accepting the mistake, a good example being that of over applying a rule; Goed becomes Wented becomes Went, parents will correct this after a few times of making the mistake, and obviously surrounding language users cement this.

However, classroom environment learning is completely different to natural process learning. For a start the average child doesn't question 'why' it merely accepts and applys language and rules through constant repetition and immersion. 3 hours a week in a classroom bears no relation. You may not necessarily use rules in the classroom, but understanding them and helping others to assimilate and apply them then expand their use, I would argue, needs a knowledge of the mechanics of a language. especially as most students' first question when corrected or presented with new language is 'Why?'

[JZer]