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| Do you find being called a Loa Wai or Wai Gwo Ren offensive? |
| Yes! |
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31% |
[ 11 ] |
| No! |
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68% |
[ 24 ] |
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| Total Votes : 35 |
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Serious_Fun
Joined: 28 Jun 2005
Posts: 1171
Location: terra incognita
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 Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 3:20 pm Post subject: |
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| TRUBADOUR wrote: |
 you're the first one to notice. I consider it a play on words in a word - I'm tru(e) bad door - poetic, street AND psychedelic , don't you think? Would J. Dowland approve, that is the question.
Except typing head-down, no excuse for not spell-checking, though.. |
I'm sorry for being so picky.  We all make spelling errors when typing quickly. |
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Mangosteen
Joined: 12 Oct 2007
Posts: 13
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| Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 6:18 pm Post subject: |
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I think most children are innocently curious about foreigners. I don't find it offensive to be called a waiguoren, which is exactly what I am. For that matter, neither am I offended by the English term "foreigner." If not for the word, how else would we talk about us?
Sure, there are a lot of times (the majority of the time) when I don't like the extra attention, and I find it annoying. But being annoyed by it is different than feeling insulted by it.
Another term I hear everyday is "hen gao", which means very tall. This, too, is annoying. But it makes one stop and think about whether one is offended by the term itself, or offended by being tactlessly pointed out in public. Taiwanese children are not necessarily any more prejudice of foreigners than they are of tall people.
One way I have of deflecting the situation is to tell the kids that I am not a waiguoren. After a confused look on their face, I say that I am a waixingren, which means alien, and I make a funny face. It makes them laugh, since they are curious about foreigners, after all, and not hateful of them.
Another thing I sometimes do when they call out waiguoren is to turn and look around as though I am trying to find the foreigner they are pointing at. "Where? Where?" (zai nali?) I say, as though oblivious to the fact that I am a foreigner. That also makes them laugh.
In another country I was called guai loh by the Cantonese speakers. I knew it was somewhat derogatory, having connotations of a ghost or a devil, but I just accepted it as the word they felt most natural to use. I joked that is was my Chinese name. In Hawaii I was called haole, which is sometimes derogatory, but not always. I quickly adopted it as a convenient term for referring to Caucasians (which, according to my dictionary is sometimes an offensive term as well.)
All in all, I think being offended by the term waiguoren is not much more constructive than being offended by the terms white, black, foreign, or tall. |
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TaoyuanSteve
Joined: 05 Feb 2003
Posts: 1028
Location: Taoyuan
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 3:07 am Post subject: |
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| blackmagicABC wrote: |
| I thought it was 佬 but like I said it is not my strongest language. Again not really applicable here but as for context. Imagine you are in a pub playing darts with your friend and you have a great round and he says "Gwei Lao" it is not offensive. It's a joke. We should spend more time on the context than on the exact translated meaning, although it is difficult to understand the context if you don't undertstand the exact translated meaning. |
You're probably right on the character. I'm not a Canto speaker by any means. I guess my only point was that one may have more grounds to feel uncomfortable with the term due to constituent parts. Although, we must stress that the word is part of common speech and its use is not an insult as such. I think I would have had a hard time in HK recently if I'd reacted every time I heard the term. lol
| mangosteen wrote: |
| Another term I hear everyday is "hen gao", which means very tall. This, too, is annoying. But it makes one stop and think about whether one is offended by the term itself, or offended by being tactlessly pointed out in public. Taiwanese children are not necessarily any more prejudice of foreigners than they are of tall people. |
This is a good point that illustrates earlier what I mentioned about Chinese pointing out the obvious. Chinese are just used to saying what they see and making conversation about it. We may not like being talked about or pointed out, but the intention isn't to offend. I think we all should do what you have done and read the intention behind the words and action of people here, rather than just reacting to the fact we're being mentioned. |
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TRUBADOUR
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 46
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 11:49 am Post subject: |
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| Mangosteen wrote: |
All in all, I think being offended by the term waiguoren is not much more constructive than being offended by the terms white, black, foreign, or tall. |
Or a more valid reason for voting for someone, IMHO!! |
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stunnershades
Joined: 06 Mar 2007
Posts: 32
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| Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 2:26 am Post subject: |
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| A helpful resource for me in times of introspection, I think this website could prove to be handy with inter-racial relations: http://stuffwhitepeoplelike.wordpress.com/ |
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BigWally
Joined: 07 Jun 2006
Posts: 765
Location: Ottawa, CAN (prev. Kaohsiung "the Dirty South")
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| Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 4:48 am Post subject: |
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| TaoyuanSteve wrote: |
| This is a good point that illustrates earlier what I mentioned about Chinese pointing out the obvious. Chinese are just used to saying what they see and making conversation about it. We may not like being talked about or pointed out, but the intention isn't to offend. I think we all should do what you have done and read the intention behind the words and action of people here, rather than just reacting to the fact we're being mentioned. |
Does anyone else find it strange that in the western world, we view someone pointing out obvious differences as racist, or sexist. I mean is it really racist to point out that someone is Black, or Asian, or say something like "Asians typically work very hard"? Or is it sexist to say that "men are typically stronger than women"?
I will agree that a statement that is hurtful & racially motivated should not be allowed...but what if the statement is just an obvious statement of fact?
I think that our political correctness sensors are on overdrive, and we are taught to ignore the differences otherwise we'd be called racist, sexist, etc. Why is it bad to point out differences? Differences do exist.
Its almost like a form of thought control...we are taught from a very young age, that even thinking those thoughts are bad. When did it become wrong to point out things that are different? Why is different bad? |
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blackmagicABC
Joined: 03 Mar 2008
Posts: 68
Location: Taipei
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| Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 6:22 am Post subject: |
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It is actually a very humorous site. Thanks for posting it.
I didn't think this thread would go this way but here are my thoughts. We hate people who do not conform to our view of things. Different means different from us. Different race,religion, cluture ir whatever.
That could create a problem in a multicultural society. In steps problem solving 101. "If there is a problem ignore it until it goes away." Unfortunately and obviously it doesn't work. I think it is nonsense that it should be considered wrong or offensive to point out the obvious. We also only need to do that because often people are unwilling to accept it. There is no point in giving examples. |
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MomCat
Joined: 02 Dec 2004
Posts: 297
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| Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 3:06 pm Post subject: |
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| blackmagicABC wrote: |
| .... here are my thoughts. We hate people who do not conform to our view of things. Different means different from us. Different race, religion, culture or whatever. |
Surely you don't really believe that's true for everyone, or even for most people. Yes, some people are like that, they're called bigots. But everyone, the big collective "We"? |
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blackmagicABC
Joined: 03 Mar 2008
Posts: 68
Location: Taipei
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| Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 6:30 pm Post subject: |
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| MomCat wrote: |
| blackmagicABC wrote: |
| .... here are my thoughts. We hate people who do not conform to our view of things. Different means different from us. Different race, religion, culture or whatever. |
Surely you don't really believe that's true for everyone, or even for most people. Yes, some people are like that, they're called bigots. But everyone, the big collective "We"? |
No, I don't believe it is true for everyone. For today I believe it is true for 26% of the people who voted on this thread. That number may be different tomorrow. |
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MomCat
Joined: 02 Dec 2004
Posts: 297
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| Posted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 9:56 am Post subject: |
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| blackmagicABC wrote: |
| MomCat wrote: |
| blackmagicABC wrote: |
| .... here are my thoughts. We hate people who do not conform to our view of things. Different means different from us. Different race, religion, culture or whatever. |
Surely you don't really believe that's true for everyone, or even for most people. Yes, some people are like that, they're called bigots. But everyone, the big collective "We"? |
No, I don't believe it is true for everyone. For today I believe it is true for 26% of the people who voted on this thread. That number may be different tomorrow. |
Yes, I have to agree with you on that number. |
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TaoyuanSteve
Joined: 05 Feb 2003
Posts: 1028
Location: Taoyuan
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| Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 2:35 am Post subject: |
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| BigWally wrote: |
| TaoyuanSteve wrote: |
| This is a good point that illustrates earlier what I mentioned about Chinese pointing out the obvious. Chinese are just used to saying what they see and making conversation about it. We may not like being talked about or pointed out, but the intention isn't to offend. I think we all should do what you have done and read the intention behind the words and action of people here, rather than just reacting to the fact we're being mentioned. |
Does anyone else find it strange that in the western world, we view someone pointing out obvious differences as racist, or sexist. I mean is it really racist to point out that someone is Black, or Asian, or say something like "Asians typically work very hard"? Or is it sexist to say that "men are typically stronger than women"?
I will agree that a statement that is hurtful & racially motivated should not be allowed...but what if the statement is just an obvious statement of fact?
I think that our political correctness sensors are on overdrive, and we are taught to ignore the differences otherwise we'd be called racist, sexist, etc. Why is it bad to point out differences? Differences do exist.
Its almost like a form of thought control...we are taught from a very young age, that even thinking those thoughts are bad. When did it become wrong to point out things that are different? Why is different bad? |
Some really good points for discussion, Wally.
I agree with your overall sentiment and I do think we've gone a little too far to the extreme on the sensitivity scale in the west. However, we have to acknowledge that there are reasons we have arrived at that point in the western world. Without going into painfully lengthy detail, those reasons have to do with histories of racial and gender injustice, multicultural society and a desire to all be viewed as equal citizens. One point that I alluded to earlier was that a Chinese pointing out the racial difference of a westerner does not carry the same baggage as, say, a white person using a racially insensitive descriptor to describe a black person in the west. Put simply, a Chinese pointing and saying "laowai" is not analogous to someone saying "tar baby" to a black person. The contexts and intentions are just completely different. Yes, we are minority subjects here, but we are not oppressed and the normal terms that describe us just aren't derogatory. |
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BigWally
Joined: 07 Jun 2006
Posts: 765
Location: Ottawa, CAN (prev. Kaohsiung "the Dirty South")
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| Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 4:16 pm Post subject: |
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| TaoyuanSteve wrote: |
| BigWally wrote: |
| TaoyuanSteve wrote: |
| This is a good point that illustrates earlier what I mentioned about Chinese pointing out the obvious. Chinese are just used to saying what they see and making conversation about it. We may not like being talked about or pointed out, but the intention isn't to offend. I think we all should do what you have done and read the intention behind the words and action of people here, rather than just reacting to the fact we're being mentioned. |
Does anyone else find it strange that in the western world, we view someone pointing out obvious differences as racist, or sexist. I mean is it really racist to point out that someone is Black, or Asian, or say something like "Asians typically work very hard"? Or is it sexist to say that "men are typically stronger than women"?
I will agree that a statement that is hurtful & racially motivated should not be allowed...but what if the statement is just an obvious statement of fact?
I think that our political correctness sensors are on overdrive, and we are taught to ignore the differences otherwise we'd be called racist, sexist, etc. Why is it bad to point out differences? Differences do exist.
Its almost like a form of thought control...we are taught from a very young age, that even thinking those thoughts are bad. When did it become wrong to point out things that are different? Why is different bad? |
Some really good points for discussion, Wally.
I agree with your overall sentiment and I do think we've gone a little too far to the extreme on the sensitivity scale in the west. However, we have to acknowledge that there are reasons we have arrived at that point in the western world. Without going into painfully lengthy detail, those reasons have to do with histories of racial and gender injustice, multicultural society and a desire to all be viewed as equal citizens. One point that I alluded to earlier was that a Chinese pointing out the racial difference of a westerner does not carry the same baggage as, say, a white person using a racially insensitive descriptor to describe a black person in the west. Put simply, a Chinese pointing and saying "laowai" is not analogous to someone saying "tar baby" to a black person. The contexts and intentions are just completely different. Yes, we are minority subjects here, but we are not oppressed and the normal terms that describe us just aren't derogatory. |
I agree that the rampant racism that existed in North America for decades is probably at the heart of our overwhelming politically correct attitudes, but I question why if attitudes toward racism can change, why can't our PC attitudes change too?
I also wonder why as Caucasians we are taught to humble ourselves, and not point out the differences between ourselves and other races/cultural heritages? I also wonder if I'm racist when I see some kids from Canada or the US (for example) in Thailand, acting like they are above the law, making fools of themselves, and basically being complete a$$e$. I have a joke with a friend of mine, and we deem these people "a disgrace to the race". Does that make me racist against my own people? Or am I just pointing out that they are acting like imbeciles?
I'm glad you mentioned multiculturalism too, because for me this has always been a contentious point. As a Canadian I constantly had it rammed down my throat how Canada is so wonderful because of the multiculturalism it has. Now, having traveled to places such as Kota Kinabalu, Singapore, and Bangkok I've seen far more "true" multiculturalism than I ever have in Canada. In these places different cultures are able to exist side by side, and seem to be able to do it in a friendly manner. In Toronto for example, the idea of multiculturalism in my opinion is false, because its not so much everyone existing side by side, but rather ethnic pockets scattered around the city. Chinatown, Kensington Market, Little Italy, Little Greece, Morningside, etc. It seems that even though there may be many races/culture in Toronto, they don't co-exist in the "true" sense that Asian cities do.
On a side note, I really like where this thread is going.
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TRUBADOUR
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 46
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| Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 12:45 am Post subject: |
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I think I meant to say - ignorance should not be so easily offended by itself.
Just trying to sum it up in a sentence. |
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Ming_2008
Joined: 15 Apr 2008
Posts: 3
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| Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 5:46 pm Post subject: China is the most multi-culturalized country |
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I am a Chinese. I am now a LaoWai in Ireland.
In my point of view, most Chinese calling foreigner people "LaoWai" simply because there is actually no alternative word in Chinese for you guys. I searched my head for alternatives. In earlier time, Chinese called white people "Yang Ren", which meant Ocean People because you came from sea. Or we may have to say "Bai Ren", which means "white people".
The current China was only opened up to the world after late 1970s. And China has huge population. Foreigner people are very rarely seen. So you guys look really interesting to us!
Indeed, Lao Wai is the most natural way to address foreigners. Calling Bai Ren does not sounds natural, nor is it general.
| Quote: |
I'm glad you mentioned multiculturalism too, because for me this has always been a contentious point. As a Canadian I constantly had it rammed down my throat how Canada is so wonderful because of the multiculturalism it has. Now, having traveled to places such as Kota Kinabalu, Singapore, and Bangkok I've seen far more "true" multiculturalism than I ever have in Canada. In these places different cultures are able to exist side by side, and seem to be able to do it in a friendly manner. In Toronto for example, the idea of multiculturalism in my opinion is false, because its not so much everyone existing side by side, but rather ethnic pockets scattered around the city. Chinatown, Kensington Market, Little Italy, Little Greece, Morningside, etc. It seems that even though there may be many races/culture in Toronto, they don't co-exist in the "true" sense that Asian cities do.
On a side note, I really like where this thread is going.
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I would say, China is the most multi-culturalized country in the world. For example, the Silk Road that connected China to West Asia brought Buddhism to China and made it one of the major traditional religions of China. In the long history, China experienced periods of united and scattered many times. This kind of process made the culture of different regions and different tribes mixed and exchanged deeply.
China's history has a very unique feature that the government of different dynasties came to an end and were replaced but the culture developed continuously. Even different tribes other than the majority Han tribe were governing China in different dynasties. However, they did not ruin the culture, but accepted Chinese language and further enriched the culture by adding in their own culture.
Regards
Ming
http://www.foreigners-in-china.com |
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MomCat
Joined: 02 Dec 2004
Posts: 297
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| Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 5:27 am Post subject: Re: China is the most multi-culturalized country |
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| Ming_2008 wrote: |
I am a Chinese. I am now a LaoWai in Ireland.
In my point of view, most Chinese calling foreigner people "LaoWai" simply because there is actually no alternative word in Chinese for you guys. I searched my head for alternatives. In earlier time, Chinese called white people "Yang Ren", which meant Ocean People because you came from sea. Or we may have to say "Bai Ren", which means "white people".
I would say, China is the most multi-culturalized country in the world. |
Ming,
You say there is no alternative word for "you guys" in Chinese? How about "visitor" or "tourist" or "teacher" or "guest" or (if the speaker bothered to try to know us rather than just point at us) our name. I think the fact that you (and 1.3 billion other people) can't think of any other way to refer to us says a lot about the culture.
You say you're a loawai in Ireland. Let me ask: Do people follow you around, pointing and saying, "Chinaman, Chinaman"? Do mothers point you out to their children saying, "Look, a Chinaman" or "Look, a person from Asia"? Do people ride past you on their bikes, yell, "Ni Hao!" and ride off laughing when you turn around?
Loawai is more than a word, it's an attitude that proclaims us to be things, not people.
You comment about China being "multi culturalized". This may, indeed, have been true in the past. But since Mao so successfully wiped out all remnants of past cultures I don't believe it's a statement that can be applied to Modern China where, in the observation of this "loawai", making money and robotically parroting the dictums of the powers-that-be are the only culture to be found.
But, in truth, your post and my reply more appropriately belong on the China - off topic forum because we are talking about China and this is the Taiwan forum and, as we all know, Taiwan is a separate country.
Cat |
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