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miamimaestro
Joined: 25 Mar 2008
Posts: 18
Location: UNITED STATES
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 Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 3:09 am Post subject: NOT KNOWING CHINESE |
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Hey fellow ESL teachers. Just curious? Give me your perspective in teaching ESL in China. What if you don't know the local language?  |
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tw
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
Posts: 3898
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| Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 3:19 am Post subject: |
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| You will pick up simple phrases and expressions fairly soon and you really want to in order to make daily life easier. While students may like a FT who can speak their language, you really wouldn't want to speak Chinese to them. |
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mcl sonya
Joined: 12 Dec 2007
Posts: 179
Location: Qingdao
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| Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 4:38 am Post subject: |
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| You're not supposed to speak Chinese with them so it's not a big deal. Some of the FTs at my school know phrases like, "zhend'a," "yidiardiar," and "wo shi meiguoren," and the kids love that, but it doesn't really make a difference. It's almost ridiculous how they applauded when one of the other FTs visited my class and said a couple words in Chinese. I speak Chinese but I pretend not to, although I do find that it's useful to be able to walk around during group activities and know that they're actually working and not just chatting in Chinese, and also to (seemingly intuitively) understand when they have problems they can't express in English. But, you can generally tell when they don't understand something, and it's always a good idea to say everything three times in different (and simple) ways. I had to yell at one class in Chinese, and while they're considerably better behaved now because I was harsh, with a harshness they would not have understood in their limited English, the rare idiot snaps at me now in Chinese and tells me to quit being annoying and trying to make him speak English all the time. I imagine if the other classes knew I spoke Chinese it'd be impossible to force them to speak English all the time. They giggle when they accidentally speak Chinese to me, and their classmates helpfully supply them with the right words. Would they do that if they knew I understood anyway? Don't want to find out... |
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vikuk
Joined: 23 May 2007
Posts: 1842
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| Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 4:39 am Post subject: |
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| you really wouldn't want to speak Chinese to them. |
Why not???? Could you imagine taking a language course in your home country from a teacher that had no English????? Do you think that by just listening to Spanish, for 1 or 2 hours/week in a classroom that you'd learn Spanish?? How do you learn - just listen, try and figure out what the teacher says if you can't understand them? How do you gain any language knowledge if certain hard to understand elements of an L2 are not explained in your L1??
As for the poor teacher with no way of using simple Chinese to get the students to obey simple class rules - well if they're teaching small kids who have hardly any English - then hope for really small classes of under 5 children!!!
Advanced English learners benefit from classes that establish mainly English speaking learning environments - but I'm afraid this category of student falls into the minority, with a great host of students in China hardly able to string together a simple sentence!!!! And the irony in this - those newbie teachers with no Chinese are so often sent to teach the students at the lowest level - while those who have the Chinese are so often sent into those advanced classes. Why??? Of course its gotta be something to do with experience - but maybe serious students consider a teacher who is bilingual in both English and Chinese to be the more effective 
As for me, my Chinese is crap - but I always teach with a Chinese assistant who comes into play when there is confusion over language and a bit of L1 explanation is needed. The same principle used by your professional qualified language teachers back home - just 2 teachers to carry out the job instead of 1 bilingual teacher. |
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bdawg
Joined: 25 Feb 2004
Posts: 526
Location: Nanjing
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| Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 5:01 am Post subject: |
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| I speak some Mandarin but avoid using it in the classroom like the plague. My Mando is not great, but better than others, but not remotely adequate enough for true acceptance. I can't stand the roaring laughter that is (don't fool yourself...it is not a form of praise) directed squarely at me that inevitably occurs over even the simplest of phrases. |
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vikuk
Joined: 23 May 2007
Posts: 1842
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| Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 5:02 am Post subject: |
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| You're not supposed to speak Chinese with them |
Which makes a huge mockery of the concept - the teacher as the expert, being given "room and license" to create the most effective learning environments  |
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vikuk
Joined: 23 May 2007
Posts: 1842
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| Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 5:05 am Post subject: |
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| I speak some Mandarin but avoid using it in the classroom like the plague. My Mando is not great, but better than others, but not remotely adequate enough for true acceptance. I can't stand the roaring laughter that is (don't fool yourself...it is not a form of praise) directed squarely at me that inevitably occurs over even the simplest of phrases. |
Your students may not laugh at your English - but how many of them fully understand it? How many of them understand the more complex content of your teaching????
Are you one of those teachers that focus on those 5-10 good English students who're perched on the front row - while the other 45 hibernate on their benches |
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arioch36
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 3589
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| Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 6:37 am Post subject: |
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You do not need to know any Chinese to be a good teacher. You can also have a good time in China without knowing any Chinese.
But I do think you will be a better teacher if you have learned a second language, especially Chinese, and knowing Chinese will help you understand and enjoy Chinese.
Vikuk
| Quote: |
Your students may not laugh at your English - but how many of them fully understand it? How many of them understand the more complex content of your teaching????
Are you one of those teachers that focus on those 5-10 good English students who're perched on the front row - while the other 45 hibernate on their benches |
I personally agree. They all need to fully understand what I want of them, then everything becomes easier. Oral English is a team sport
I have no position on whether to use chinese in the classroom. I do, especially the first couple of classes. This could be wrong. for now, I don't think so. I also allow them to use Chinese. I am not worried about them using Chinese. i am worried about them learning to use English, which is a different skill for the adult learner.
Many times I will say the english word, and ask them to tanslate in Chinese. I will listen to their translation. Example: Today we spent time on compliments. I complimented a student on her bracelet (always trying to use new words). Bracelet was a new word for many. Many said "biao" (watch). If no one said "shouzhuo" (bracelet), I would have said this. The point of the class wasn't the meaning of "bracelet", but how to use complete sentences giving extra information (conjunction and prepositions) to give and accept compliments.
if I have an important concept I want them to understand (such as always use complete sentences), first I explain in English. based on facial feedback and their translation in Chinese, I can know if they understand. If i need it spoken in Chinese for them to understand what to do, so be it.
Many other uses for Chinese in the classroom, though I understand if someone says English only. Again, I don't care about how much Chinese they use, only about how much English they use. If using some Chinese facilitates an English conversation, I am for it. And I think it does (when closely monitored)
I do have a definite fault ... perhaps. For poorer, or less confident students, I will ask "ming bai bu ming bai" "do you understand" I look at their reaction. Then i will say "bu tai ming bai?" you partly understand?
This may be wrong, I have not decided. But with the poorest students in the class, this is a quick, effective way to keep them in the game. Obviously with the better students, no Chinese is neccessary. I just have to learn to shut up, and they will talk and talk in english
Also learning the culture through the language will allow you to understand key cultural differences that cause problems.
I think most of us have experienced going to a restaurant and asking, "What is that?" being curious, but not wanting to have it for dinner. The chinese friend says nothing to us, but talks chinese to the waiter. You are a little upset because the student doesn't reply to you. And then what is for dinner? That expensive strange thing that you asked about, but really didn't want to eat.
Today we talked about how if a Chinese says he hopes you can come to his hometown, it really doesn't mean that
Last edited by arioch36 on Thu Mar 27, 2008 6:49 am; edited 2 times in total |
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The_Hanged_Man
Joined: 10 Oct 2004
Posts: 224
Location: Tbilisi, Georgia
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| Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 6:39 am Post subject: |
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| vikuk wrote: |
| Quote: |
| You're not supposed to speak Chinese with them |
Which makes a huge mockery of the concept - the teacher as the expert, being given "room and license" to create the most effective learning environments |
I know I learned the most from immersive language programs when the instructor did not speak a word of English. When I was in the Peace Corps I went from not knowing a word of Uzbek to being intermediate in just 3 months in such a program.
Middlebury, which is one of top language schools in the world, makes students sign a pledge to not speak English at all (even in the dorms or around town) during the duration of the program. I had a friend who did a summer Spanish program with them, and her progress was amazing for just under a couple of months of study. |
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arioch36
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 3589
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| Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 6:54 am Post subject: |
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I think highly of immersive programs. However, that is not what the reality is in a Chinese school. My uni students must all function in a Chinese environment. They want to eat lunch, they must speak Chinese. Their Chinese teachers (for subjects including english) will speak chinese.
So this doesn't really address Vikuk's point that if you walk into the uni classroom, and speak only English from day one, many of the students in a 40 student class will have no idea what you want, and will not be able to try (given their psyche and ability, and 24 other hours of classes in Chinese, plus countless meetings they must attend) |
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bdawg
Joined: 25 Feb 2004
Posts: 526
Location: Nanjing
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| Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 8:27 am Post subject: |
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| Are you one of those teachers that focus on those 5-10 good English students who're perched on the front row |
My program limits class sizes at 15 students, all of whom occupy seats in a semi circle layout. Their relative young age (20-21) warrants a level of immaturity when piss-poor Mandarin is used. In hindsight, it is not needed at all as their English level is easily outweights my Mandarin as well as the majority of most foreigners.
But I concede that in situations where students have no idea what you are talking about, employing Mandarin will be a useful and most likely productive approach. |
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vikuk
Joined: 23 May 2007
Posts: 1842
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| Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 10:25 am Post subject: |
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| Middlebury, which is one of top language schools in the world |
comparing your average Chinese EFL classrooms to this Middlebury - where no doubt the motivation levels of the student body is also on the world class level - is like comparing a Beijing pedal trike to a Ferrari!!!! How likely is the OP to work in classrooms that come anywhere near the Middlebury standard?????
Ariochs point also about comparing Middlebury - a school that specialises in language, and one that can create effective immersion environments, to the Chinese norm - is bang on. How can you be immersed in English with 2 hours/week from your FT - and all your other normal school stuff????
The big point I'm trying to make is - It's of course possible to teach English to Chinese without having any Chinese language "help" - but having access to Chinese is a fantastic teaching tool, and in certain situations makes the difference between a total joke of a teaching situation, and one where students have a chance of being included and actually learning.
Just to dismiss the use of Chinese in the EFL classroom seems to be very shortsighted |
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fat_chris
Joined: 10 Sep 2003
Posts: 3198
Location: Beijing
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| Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 11:32 am Post subject: |
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| vikuk wrote: |
| Just to dismiss the use of Chinese in the EFL classroom seems to be very shortsighted |
Agreed.
If you can get your hands on a copy, check out the latest Essential Teacher (Volume 5, Issue 1, March 2008) put out by TESOL. There is a relevant article titled "Reflecting on Native-English-Speaking Teachers in China" by Zhenhui Rao, who is a professor at Jiangxi Normal University. He collected student feedback about NES teachers in China. One concern that Chinese students had was their (NES teachers) "unfamiliarity with the local cultural and educational system" (page 23). I would say that this would include knowledge of the local language.
When I was a teacher in Sichuan province, I seriously studied Mandarin and became very comfortable with the language after three years. I wouldn't speak Mandarin in the classroom, but like mcl sonya, I would listen to students when they were speaking with each other in Chinese to gauge their progress on an activity.
One thing that I occasionally did in the classroom was compare an aspect of Mandarin with an aspect of English to elaborate on a teaching point. I sensed that the students greatly appreciated it when I gave them brief anecdotes about my trials and tribulations in learning Mandarin. That put their mind at ease when they struggled with English. It was a way of me saying: "I feel your pain and I know what it's like." Such an attitude actually goes a long way with the students. Why ask students to do something you yourself wouldn't be willing to do as a student?
So...regarding the original question, "what if you don't know the local language?" my answer is LEARN IT! I fail to understand how teachers who live in a locale for years can't speak and understand a lick of the local language--quite embarrassing really and not a good model to our students.
Regards,
fat_chris
Last edited by fat_chris on Thu Mar 27, 2008 3:40 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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The Voice Of Reason
Joined: 29 Jun 2004
Posts: 492
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| Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 12:24 pm Post subject: |
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Last edited by The Voice Of Reason on Sun Sep 29, 2013 8:04 am; edited 1 time in total |
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shuize
Joined: 04 Sep 2004
Posts: 1270
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| Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 12:25 pm Post subject: |
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| fat_chris wrote: |
| So...regarding the original question, "what if you don't know the local language?" my answer is LEARN IT! I fail to understand how teachers who live in a locale for years can't speak and understand a lick of the local language--quite embarrassing really and not a good model to our students. |
One sees a fair amount of this in Japan as well. I've met ex-pats who've lived here for decades with just rudimentary Japanese. I am embarrassed for them since they are often too oblivious to appreciate how retarded they sound. |
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