Job Discussion Forums

[arioch36]

Jones, Glenski, Slat, and grammarian receiving this page, please respond ASAP to another ridiculous grammar dispute

http://forums.eslcafe.com/job/viewtopic.php?p=652112#652112

The England team suck? Or the England team sucks!

[Kent F. Kruhoeffer]

^ Hello arioch36


This is another one of those examples of English vs. English.



Are collective nouns singular or plural? hotel, team, company, etc ...


The Hotel are planning to hire 25 new employees this year

The Hotel is planning to hire 25 new employees this year.



It can create problems sometimes, especially when the 2 versions come into contact with each other at the same time in a professional environment, such as a hotel. Manager X tells her subordinate that 'The Hotel is planning such and such' --- is wrong, 5 minutes after I told her it was right. This question would fit in nicely with that thread a few years ago highlighting the differences between British and American English.



I'll see if I can find it.



Found it, dated 20 May 2003.



It's 16 pages, but worth reading from start to finish. There's some really funny stuff in there.


Here it is: Bristish vs. American English, Tea Leaves, Tampons and MORE!

[arioch36]

Sadly I remember it. that's when i first learned the word "invigilator"

Napkins

[johnslat]

Singular collective nouns, such as "family", "team", "class" (referring to the students), etc., can require singular OR plural agreement with the verb, depending on whether the members of the "group" are acting as a unit:

singular - e.g. Our team is winning the game.

or as individuals:

plural - e.g. The team are going to their cars.


"In AmE, collective nouns are usually singular in construction: the committee was unable to agree... AmE however may use plural pronouns in agreement with collective nouns: the team takes their seats, rather than the team takes its seats. The rule of thumb is that a group acting as a unit is considered singular and a group of "individuals acting separately" is considered plural. However, such a sentence would most likely be recast as the team members take their seats. Despite exceptions such as usage in the New York Times, the names of sports teams are usually treated as plurals even if the form of the name is singular."

In British usage, however, collective nouns are more often treated as plurals.

When I teach collective nouns, I explain the "acting as a unit" versus the "acting as individuals" distinction, but then, I also mention that in British English, collective nouns usually require plural subject/verb agreement.


So, the English team sucks/rules if the speaker is American, but likely the English team suck/rule if the speaker is British.

By the way, I don't think "Hotel" should be capitalized, Kent:

"The Hotel are planning to hire 25 new employees this year

The Hotel is planning to hire 25 new employees this year."

Regards,
John

[MO39]

[Stephen Jones]

'The England team suck' is ambiguous.

[Stephen Jones]

I would say The hotel are planning is ungrammatical, unless the owner had multiple personality disorders.

On the other hand if there was a group called 'The Hotel', possibly owner of a chain of leisure complexes where the England team suck, then you could use either singular or plural.

[Kent F. Kruhoeffer]

Hi guys:


Yes, I think it is one of the more entertaining threads on Dave's.

re: the hotel example cited above


In the real-life example, the name of the particular hotel was used with plural verb agreement. i.e, Sheraton Bangkok are planning to open a new spa in April ...

Earlier in the day I had told the marketing manager's assistant (who was working on the draft press release) that it would probably be better to say "Sheraton Bangkok is planning to open ..." but that both are considered correct.

What say you? Are both versions corrrect or is one more grammatically correct than the other?

[johnslat]

Dear Kent,
I'd go with "is planning."
I think, given the context and the fact that "hotel" doesn't really qualify as a collective/group noun (it's only one hotel in a chain), that "are planning" would be incorrect.
Regards,
John

[arioch36]

Jones

[johnslat]

Dear arioch36,
Regarding the "school", "university" (or "college"), and "hospital" matter (i.e. whether or not to use an article with them), I'd say that "the" should be used only when referring to a specific school, university and/or hospital which in in the local area and which both the speaker and the listener(s) are familiar with.

e.g. He's going to the university to see his professor there; he drove to the hospital to visit his sick friend.

However, when not speaking of a specific place, then use no article. In such cases, the meaning of "school" or "university"/"college" is not specific but instead general. "School", "university", "college" in that context has the meaning of "getting an education." It's the same with "hospital." With no article, "hospital" doesn't refer to a specific place in the local area, but instead has the meaning of " he/she is very sick."

e.g.
A: "Where's Bob?
B: "Oh, he's at school/college/university." or "He's in hospital"

I can recall may Brits saying something very much like, "I must go to university", when referring not to a specific place, but rather to continuing his/her education.

"The capital "H" does create a new context, which is why such things do have meaning."

Sorry, I don't understand this. What "new context" is created? Unless the name of the hotel is "The Hotel", I don't see why the word would be capitalized any more than, say, "the university." My understanding is that
proper nouns refer to specific places, persons, things, and ideas. But in the example given, "hotel" isn't specific.

Regards,
John

[Stephen Jones]

[arioch36]

hotel ("h")is definitely one place, as far as I can figure. Hotel ("H") could conceivably be an investment group, or a chain.


Slat

[MO39]

I've always thought (and heard and read) that "He's in the hospital" is American usage and "He's in hospital" (which sounds weird to this American) is British. In both cases, the identity of the hospital is not made clear - all that we know is that the person in question is sick enough to need be placed in said hospital.

[Kent F. Kruhoeffer]

Right, MO39 ... but wait, there's more!



UK: he's in a serious condition.

USA: he's in serious condition.


I'd love to know how all these little differences evolved.

It's weird, but the more I teach, the more differences I find.


In the Callan textbooks, they teach ... "Have you a book?"

Now I'm sorry, but that sends shivers up and down my spine.