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shmooj
Joined: 11 Sep 2003
Posts: 1758
Location: Seoul, ROK
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 Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2004 12:01 pm Post subject: |
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avahanian - No one is criticising the hedonist lifestyle here. There are plenty of other threads that do that. 
The issue here is, is there a pure pedagogic reason why Japan is a better place than anywhere else.
Glenski - that's better 
Fair enough if you haven't taught anywhere else, and your comments re students you have taught here ring many bells with me. |
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avahanian
Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 123
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| Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2004 9:03 pm Post subject: backpackers in Japan |
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| Glenski wrote: |
| I don't blame them for wanting to party. I take issue with their attitude toward the job. From what you've written, the same problem is seen in Spain, so are you actually defending people who breeze in, make a few bucks, party, then leave (sometimes before a contract is up)? |
I don't defend backpackers who only want to party and don't care about teaching. But I do defend good teachers who also want to party.
There is a big difference IMHO, but as you have said, there are few teachers who are good at their job and are able to party. But they do exist...
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| Stop right there. What kind of crack is that, and how do you expect anyone to take you seriously after that? |
Well perhaps I should have worded it differently, but have you ever seen Portsmouth England, or Duluth Iowa? Places like those are so boring that you can't blame people for wanting to escape 
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| C'mon, Arin. Does all of that (whether it's true or not) justify their behavior? |
No it doesn't, but I am merely pointing out some of the reasons why they choose to come to Japan.
Again, I don't defend backpackers who ruin the reputation of good teachers and ruin the industry, but I do defend those who want to have a good time and who are also dedicated to teaching.
To see that this is possible, just watch GTO (Great Teacher Onizuka)
OK, but seriously, these kind of teachers do exist. If we ever meet, I'll prove it
cheers |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Mon Jan 12, 2004 6:28 am Post subject: |
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| But they do exist... |
Gee, I never said they didn't. Just had to get in the last word, eh?
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| Well perhaps I should have worded it differently, but have you ever seen Portsmouth England, or Duluth Iowa? Places like those are so boring that you can't blame people for wanting to escape |
Do you mean Duluth, Minnesota? I have family there, and they enjoy it just fine. I came from that area, too (90 miles away). Most of my high school classmates still live within a 150 mile radius of that place, so they must find it SOMEWHAT appealing, wouldn't you say? Boring is what you perceive it to be. If you meant smaller cities are boring, I've met some awfully boring people from major cities. Yes, you worded it badly, VERY badly. Slamming two whole countries when you meant... uh, what DID you mean? |
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easyasabc
Joined: 13 Jul 2003
Posts: 179
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Mon Jan 12, 2004 11:43 am Post subject: Re: backpackers in Japan |
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| avahanian wrote: |
| there are few teachers who are good at their job and are able to party. But they do exist... |
Absolutely! I'm very serious about teaching and I party big time! 
. |
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Smooth Operator
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Posts: 140
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Mon Jan 12, 2004 3:46 pm Post subject: |
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Some posters (naming no names) need to get off their high horse. We all know that both men and women come here to work and meet locals of the opposite sex. Anecdotal evidence suggests that more men than women do this. Anyway, isn't it rather condescending to look down upon such behaviour just because one has happened, ironically, to get married to a Japanese man or woman?
As regards the teaching, generally it is a low-stress experience for most, the value of which shouldn't be underestimated... |
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avahanian
Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 123
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| Posted: Mon Jan 12, 2004 4:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Glenski wrote: |
| Do you mean Duluth, Minnesota? I have family there, and they enjoy it just fine. I came from that area, too (90 miles away). Most of my high school classmates still live within a 150 mile radius of that place, so they must find it SOMEWHAT appealing, wouldn't you say? Boring is what you perceive it to be. If you meant smaller cities are boring, I've met some awfully boring people from major cities. Yes, you worded it badly, VERY badly. Slamming two whole countries when you meant... uh, what DID you mean? |
hi Glenski,
I hope you didn't take my posting too seriously, I was just trying to give the other side of the coin and be a little humourous as well.
No I didn't mean that the UK and USA are horrible places, I've in fact lived in both of them, so there definitely is an appeal.
But what I was trying to point out is, some of these backpackers are just children and they are bored with their lives, and want to try something new. Sure, it doesn't mean they should decide to become teachers all of a sudden, because becoming a teacher is something that takes years of study and dedication.
But TEFL gives them an opportunity to go to another country, and escape their routine daily life.
Yes it is Duluth Minnesota, I must have been thinking about Iowa because I work with someone who comes from there, slip of the tongue
But this is just too funny, I make a joke about a couple of cities and someone happens to be from there!
I might not be in disfavour with some people here if I made a similar joke about Iraq |
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avahanian
Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 123
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| Posted: Mon Jan 12, 2004 4:38 pm Post subject: Re: backpackers in Japan |
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| easyasabc wrote: |
| avahanian wrote: |
| there are few teachers who are good at their job and are able to party. But they do exist... |
Absolutely! I'm very serious about teaching and I party big time!
. |
Hi easyasabc,
that's great to hear, we are a dying breed
whereabouts do you teach, in Tokyo? |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Tue Jan 13, 2004 12:43 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| what I was trying to point out is, some of these backpackers are just children and they are bored with their lives, and want to try something new. |
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| TEFL gives them an opportunity to go to another country, and escape their routine daily life. |
I realize that. It doesn't change the situation. Sign up for a job, not a reason to support a party habit. Such "children" are fresh college graduates (in most cases). I have been one and was much more serious about my goals in life. I expect the same from others.
Why do you think the teaching job market in Japan has not seen a rise in standard salary in decades? I believe that part of the reason is that employers see so many people who come and go and not take their job seriously. Another part of the reason is that the market is so easily flooded with inexperienced people looking to "escape" instead of get some training to do a good job. This is not the 60's or 70's when many people floated around Europe with their backpacks and drifted from easy job to easy job. It's not rocket science, either, as so many of us will admit, but the lifespan of an average eikaiwa teacher is less than 5 years in Japan (general opinion). Doesn't really contribute to offering us more than a certain unchanging salary, does it?
I realize that it's sometimes a Catch-22, too. Hire the inexperienced because you can expect to pay them little. Complain about the inexperienced that you hire because they aren't serious. So, another part of the problem is the standards employers (and immigration) set, but that's another story.
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| Sure, it doesn't mean they should decide to become teachers all of a sudden, because becoming a teacher is something that takes years of study and dedication. |
Not really. You can become an English teacher with a degree in geology or microbiology just by answering the right ad. No experience needed in many cases. Little experience needed in others. You don't even need the certification of a TEFL program in most cases. Look at the ads.[/quote]
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I hope you didn't take my posting too seriously, I was just trying to give the other side of the coin and be a little humourous as well.
No I didn't mean that the UK and USA are horrible places, I've in fact lived in both of them, so there definitely is an appeal. |
I don't take it personally (now), but I do take it seriously. I still don't know exactly what you mean, especially now that you say you have had good experiences living in both countries. All we have to go on here is what we read, and that's not always easy to interpret. |
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avahanian
Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 123
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| Posted: Tue Jan 13, 2004 6:42 am Post subject: |
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[quote="Glenski"]
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| I realize that. It doesn't change the situation. Sign up for a job, not a reason to support a party habit. Such "children" are fresh college graduates (in most cases). I have been one and was much more serious about my goals in life. I expect the same from others. |
Hi Glenski,
From now on I have to be careful when posting messages, you just take me too seriously mate
"Doozo yoroshiku"
I hope that's right!
I understand you completely, but you can't expect others to be like you, especially when they don't have the understanding, or the maturity. You happen to be serious about the goals in your life, which is to be commended. But unfortunately many of these backpackers are not that way....but you can't get upset about it, they are the way they are, and this isn't going to change, unless they themselves want to change.
No matter how much we talk about the tossers, excuse me i meant the backpackers, they shall remain backpackers
| Quote: |
| Why do you think the teaching job market in Japan has not seen a rise in standard salary in decades? I believe that part of the reason is that employers see so many people who come and go and not take their job seriously. Another part of the reason is that the market is so easily flooded with inexperienced people looking to "escape" instead of get some training to do a good job. |
That's a good point you bring up, I'm sorry to say that it's exactly the same way in Spain, though I think there are even more backpackers there than in Japan!
In Spain maybe 10 percent of the teachers are serious about teaching, the others just want to live in a sunny and warm climate (a rude awakening for them when they experience Madrid winters), drink cheap beer (they then realise that 5 pints of beer aren't really that cheap when you consider the money you make in Spain), or chase after Spanish women (who, to the surprise of these backpackers, are not easy, and most of the time want nothing to do with them!)
But the bottom line is, the schools hire these backpackers, correct? If the schools stopped hiring them, less of them would come to Japan.
But the demand for english teachers is so high that the schools have to hire many teachers (I still cant understand how Nova has opened up so many new schools in the last 5 years, but this is another story).
Don't blame it on the backpackers, they shall remain the way they are, and don't even blame the schools, as they are interested in making as much money as possible.
The philosopher Epictetus said: "An uneducated or untrained person will blame others. A partially educated or trained person will blame himself. But a wise and educated person will blame neither himself nor others."
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| I don't take it personally (now), but I do take it seriously. I still don't know exactly what you mean, especially now that you say you have had good experiences living in both countries. All we have to go on here is what we read, and that's not always easy to interpret. |
It's just too funny, because I just threw out a name of a city, and you happened to be from around there.
Whether I have had good experiences in the UK and USA is not the point - they both are great countries.
My point is, even New York, or London don't come close to Madrid and places like it, in terms of "exoticness" (is this even a word, ha ha)...to the average backpacker, they simply are not that exciting.
I have heard from Americans, Brits, Canucks, teachers etc who have been to Tokyo, that they regret ever leaving. I have yet to hear this about New York, London, Portsmouth (shudder....Kris from the YDGJ would agree!), etc
Life in the UK and USA is great....just not as exciting, when compared to some other places. It doesnt' mean they are bad places, just that you can get an idea of how backpackers think, as there are very few backpacker teachers in New York and London. Try to imagine why!
I can hear it now, from the backpackers: "Oh yes...guess where I'm going....I'm going to London to teach English!"
Does not sound very sexy/exciting does it?
But replace London with Madrid...or Tokyo, and then it does sound very exciting !
Places like Japan, Spain, China, etc are always going to sound exotic, especially to English speaking people. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Tue Jan 13, 2004 7:57 am Post subject: |
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| Don't blame it on the backpackers, they shall remain the way they are, and don't even blame the schools, as they are interested in making as much money as possible. |
I stand by my claims. You have not refuted either one. I realize that the economy itself is another chief cause, but the other two are high on my list.
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| The philosopher Epictetus said: "An uneducated or untrained person will blame others. A partially educated or trained person will blame himself. But a wise and educated person will blame neither himself nor others." |
Oh, come on!! Next thing, you'll be quoting sandbox rules that say every time you point a finger of blame at someone, there are more fingers in your hand pointing right back at you.
Epictetus also said: "First say to yourself what you would be; and then do what you have to do." Tell that to the backpackers! |
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guest of Japan
Joined: 28 Feb 2003
Posts: 1601
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Tue Jan 13, 2004 9:03 am Post subject: |
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| It is funny to listen to you two argue. You obviously agree, but have a different intensity in your opinions. |
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TokyoLiz
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 1548
Location: Tokyo, Japan
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| Posted: Wed Jan 14, 2004 12:47 am Post subject: Enough arguing already! |
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Avahanian wrote
| Quote: |
| I understand you completely, but you can't expect others to be like you, especially when they don't have the understanding, or the maturity. You happen to be serious about the goals in your life, which is to be commended. But unfortunately many of these backpackers are not that way.... |
This is a sore point with me. Like many of the teachers on this forum, I'm a career teacher. I try to maintain a professional demeanor on the job and in public. It doesn't mean I don't enjoy my life - on the contrary, I live a rich and exciting life here in Japan.
But because of the flood of inexperienced people who are just here to enjoy the trip, Japan's institutions and education professionals get rather tired of the constant waves of young people coming and going, who have little stamina and are not highly motivated to accommodate the job culture or the social context here in Japan. As a result, Japan's expectations haven't helped to make English education a valued profession.
It's rather frustrating for me because my home country doesn't value TESOL\ESL highly. In fact, the Canadian government has cut back on much of its funding for adult ESL and in the public schools, there is no room for teachers with the credentials I hold - 10 years of TESOL experience and a diploma from a recognized program. Although Canada's cities have huge student populations of English language learners, I can't get into the field unless I also have a B. Ed, a credential that is the passport into Canada's schools.
You guys sure argue a lot, Glenski and Avahanian. What about some solutions to the problems - raising the bar at the schools, requiring longer contracts? Are those solutions? Are there any commercial eikaiwa operations that want qualified people only and compensate them according to their experience and qualifications? I haven't seen many...
Maybe these topics will get you guys going in another direction? |
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dove
Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Posts: 271
Location: USA/Japan
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| Posted: Wed Jan 14, 2004 2:35 am Post subject: |
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I don't mind teachers who backpack and party as long as they show concern for the students who are paying a small fortune to learn English.
I used to work at an eikaiwa that encouraged the teachers to socilaize with the students outside of school. I partied with some of my students--they took me to the coolest clubs in Tokyo, to their favorite izakayas, to drunken cherry blossom viewing parties. I also socialized with housewives who introduced me to tea ceremony and miso-making. I went on excursions with my students to Kamakura and hot springs. I had a blast!
This school also demanded lots of lesson preparation to supplement the textbook. There were also meetings and workshops to attend and lots of councelling forms to fill out. Teachers who slacked off were not invited to renew their contracts.
What's my point: I guess it's do the best possible job you're paid to do, have some fun in moderation, take advantage of cultural opportunities, try not to worry about why others have come to Japan to teach, hope your good example will rub off on the slackers who don't care about their students and teaching, and remember that in the classroom it is not about you, it's about your students. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Wed Jan 14, 2004 5:40 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for the message, TokyoLiz.
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| What about some solutions to the problems - raising the bar at the schools, requiring longer contracts? Are those solutions |
I don't think you will see eikaiwas (or any other school) extending their contracts. I believe they are based on two factors.
1. Transient nature of (too many) teachers
2. The high possibility that newbies will get a 1-year visa. Even though people rave right now that "everyone" gets a 3-year visa (an unconfirmed rumor, IMO), you can't guarantee that immigration will stay with that. So, schools rely on the minimum.
Raising the bar at schools? I would highly recommend it. A minimum requirement would be either a bachelor's degree in education (or some related field) or a TEFL/TESOL certificate +/- some experience, and base salaries on the differences. I'm not convinced that this should also apply to JET programme applicants.
It may seriously reduce the number of potential applicants, but you'd get more serious-minded (and qualified) teachers. (I know this will raise the age-old debate about "not really needing a degree of any kind to English", but let's not do that.)
And, for what it's worth, I'm one of those people who came in through the back door, with a non-teaching background & degree and with only a TESL (not TEFL) certificate in hand. IMO, teaching is a craft that should require some proficiency gained through training/education.
Other solutions entail major changes in Japan's educational system.
| Quote: |
| Are there any commercial eikaiwa operations that want qualified people only and compensate them according to their experience and qualifications? |
The only one I know about is NOVA (a pitiful 5000 yen/month more for certain credentials). |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Wed Jan 14, 2004 5:50 am Post subject: |
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copied from the General Forum. I hope I don't offend the original poster by doing so.
I've always wanted to be an English teacher and graduated with a Bachelor of Arts(Honours) in English Language and Literature. I went to teacher's college in Australia and became a high school English and History teacher. After a few years of the appalling Australian education system I had had enough and decided to go overseas and teach. I completed a one-month Trinity College TESOL certificate before I went.
I taught overseas for five years, mostly in Russia with a couple of stints in Asia. I then enrolled in my Masters degree and graduated at the end of last year with mostly high distinctions.
I recently came to Taiwan and it just staggers me the number of people here who have no clue about teaching here. They're here to pay off debts or just see the world and teach on the side. Fine, if they were taking substandard jobs with lower salaries. The thing that bothers me is that most schools would prefer to take them, whether it's because they have the right accent(i.e North American) or they are young and good-looking.
I speak to people here who have been learning English for years. Their English is atrocious. Obviously their teachers had no idea about teaching. I substituted for a teacher last week and the director commented at the end, "You're the best teacher we've ever had!". Yet most schools would be loathe to employ me because I do not have the image or the accent.
Until this situation changes the ESL profession will be a joke and people will be walking around speaking substandard English. I hope this situation does change but I for one am very pessimistic. |
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