Job Discussion Forums

[gerard]

God I am sorry I opened this thread now. Seems clear that a team is plural and although the other form may sound fine---it isn't. Well it is since English is usage and these debates have been had here before. Here.

The Magpies are heading for relegation.

City are looking for a striker.

New England are looking like champions.

Boston are in danger of missing the playoffs. (Is cannot be used because the city of Boston do not play hockey-----a team of fools do.)

[Laura C]

Forgot to add this in my last post, re johnslat mentioning the word 'news' -- my dad always laughs at this story of an editor who insisted that 'news' was plural. He was really strict about it (I suppose we've all got our own idiosyncrasies about grammar etc!) -- and used to say to his news team 'So, are there any news?' One guy finally got peeved at this, and answered 'No, not a new...'

OK, so maybe you had to be there. But my dad will be pleased I posted his favourite story!

L

[FGT]

Checked this out tonight with friends (not all teachers, but all native speakers) we agreed that it's up to the individual at the time of speaking: how they conceptualise the group/noun that they are using.
As far as UK football teams are concerned; Wolverhampton Wanderers (plural) CAN be used in the singular if talking about that team as opposed to Another.
One friend supports Liverpool, he says he USUALLY uses plural form when talking about football in order to differentiate between the city and the team.
Another friend says that "the family is..." means them back home whereas "the family are..." includes him.
Like most English "rules" it's entirely subjective.
The only difference between UK and US English is that US football teams usually (?always) have plural names and UK ones usually have singular ones.
Try it out with the word "family". See for yourself. EG "My family are spread around the globe/ My family is spread around the globe", "My family is/are in Wales". Which is "correct"? Or can they both be?

[johnslat]

Dear FGT,
I'd say (American "rule", maybe)

My family are spread around the globe.

My family is a large one.

First sentence, you're talking about the different individuals in the family who are living in different places. Second sentence, you're talking about the family as one unit.
Regards,
John

[dmb]

Dear FGT, It pleases me to hear that even though I'm not in Turkey, people are still listening and discussing the crap which I come out with in the very pubs that I have frequented so many times in Istanbul

[Hogbear]

I'd say "My family is" in all cases.

[johnslat]

Dear Hogbear,
How about

My family is (?) living in seven different cities.

Kind of hard for them, as a unit, to be so scattered and spread out.

Regards,
John

[khmerhit]

GENTLEMEN, GENTLEMEN------Mind if I come swanning in at this point?

[johnslat]

Dear kymerhit,
Oh, OK - FIVE different countries, that's alright, but not SEVEN different cities.
So how about this one:

I come from a very quarrelsome family. My family isn't (?) talking to one another.

Try this web site:

http://www.learnenglish.org.uk/grammar/archive/collective_nouns.html

Or, if you'd prefer, just read the following:

"A collective noun is a noun that denotes a collection of persons or things regarded as a unit.

Usage Note: In American usage, a collective noun takes a singular verb when it refers to the collection considered as a whole, as in:

The family was united on this question.
The enemy is suing for peace.
It takes a plural verb when it refers to the members of the group considered as individuals, as in:

My family are always fighting among themselves.
The enemy were showing up in groups of three or four to turn in their weapons.
In British usage, however, collective nouns are more often treated as plurals:
The government have not announced a new policy.
The team are playing in the test matches next week.

A collective noun should not be treated as both singular and plural in the same construction; thus:

The family is determined to press its (not their) claim.
Among the common collective nouns are:

committee
clergy
company
enemy
group
family
flock
public
team
Yourdictionary.com.

Swan (Practical English Usage, New Edition, Oxford University Press, 1997) elaborates on this singular/plural usage, and disagrees about treating collective nouns as both singular and plural in the same construction:

"In British English, singular words like family, team, government, which refer to groups of people, can be used with either singular or plural verbs and pronouns.

This team is/are going to lose.
Plural forms are common when the group is considered as a collection of people doing personal things like deciding, hoping or wanting; and in these cases we use who, not which, as a relative pronoun. Singular forms (with which as a relative pronoun) are more common when the group is seen as an impersonal unit. Compare:

My family have decided to move to Nottingham. They think it's a better place to live.
The average British family has 3.6 members. It is smaller and richer than 50 years ago.
The government, who are hoping to ease export restrictions soon, �
The government, which is elected by a simple majority, �
My firm are wonderful. They do all they can for me.
My firm was founded in the 18th century.
When a group noun is used with a singular determiner (e.g. a/an, each, every, this, that), singular verbs and pronouns are normal. Compare:

The team are full of enthusiasm.
A team which is full of enthusiasm has a better chance of winning.
Sometimes singular and plural forms are mixed:

The group gave its first concert in June and they are already booked up for the next six months.
Examples of group nouns which can be used with both singular and plural verbs in British English:

bank
the BBC
choir
class
club
committee
England (e.g. the football team)
family
firm
government
jury
ministry
orchestra
party
public
school
staff
team
union
In American English singular verbs are normally used with most of these nouns in all cases (though family can have a plural verb). Plural pronouns can be used:

The team is in Detroit this weekend. They have a good chance of winning."
pp. 526-527



Looks like yet another instance of - to quote Winston Churchill:

" Britain and America are two nations that are divided by a common language."
Regards,
John

[latefordinner]

Thanks for the comprehensive post, John. It certainly coincides with my native feel for the language. However it leaves me wondering why the language works (wrong verb, no doubt) the way it does. Consider: "The chair, the table, and the cabinet are all dirty. The furniture need dusting." "The kettle for the bath and the pot for the rice are both boiling. The water are boiling." Sound right? No, but with the collectives listed such constructions are natural.
Any random thoughts as to why? When Chinese teachers ask me, I just say that English just doesn't make any sense. That's an evasion that I'd rather not use. Well,it doesn't happen very often.
My own thought is that it isn't so much a US-UK thing, as the percolating influence of simply bad (=ill-thought) grammar; but I'm a little inclined towards perscriptive grammar.

[zorro]

when your talking about footie, you always say scumchester utd 'are' scum... because otherwise it makes you sound like you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

supporting football is about being connected to the game. if you're saying man utd is, then its as if your distancing yourself from the sport... although maybe people should say man utd is, because who doesn't want to be distanced from them??

one good reason for teaching abroad is to get as far as possible from manchester united.

[johnslat]

Dear biffinbridge,
I can assure you that most "American football" fans are not PCers. In fact, I'm not even completely sure they're human. If you ever get the chance to catch, say, an Oakland Raiders' game, you'll see (and likely hear) what I mean.
Regards,
John
P.S. Aw, come on, biff - even we insular, there's 'Merica and then there's the rest of the world, clueless about international matters, 'Mericans know that Liverpool's a hockey team in Arizona. Baseball in Nevada, pshaw - give me a break, pal.

[arioch36]

Of course, you could just say my family members are....But then I guess there would be nothing to argue about except meta talk about meta language.

getting back to the real issue, Didn't Mr. Seamen just spend one miserable year withManchester?

So i guess they is a pile a of junk

[SueH]

nah.... that was City, not United....

What a mine of useless information and pedantry this board is

[M.]

Been kicked off the English Team 2 years ago. HIs Pacemaker gets in the Way too much. ON top of that They should Get rid of The Nevilles and Put Rooney on the pitch from the start.........

I Is a stupid AMerikan WHol LOveth FOOTBALL. WHat Can I say It is the Greatest SPORT ON EARTH.........

I support Moscow Lokamotiv..............SO sue Me. Ilived there for five years. ANd I Hate Man U...

YOU know the Three ENglish Clubs with Curse Words in them??????

..............

Just went to My first JLeague game in the Fall Not quite up to Russian Football but not bad............M....