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miamimaestro · Joined: 25 Mar 2008 Posts: 18 Location: UNITED STATES

Bad habits are hard to break. Am I the only one that catches himself either saying, hey guys! or o.k. when speaking to students? What do you think? Do you think using informal English with your students is bad mentoring?

spiral78 · Joined: 05 Apr 2004 Posts: 11534 Location: On a Short Leash

It looks like you're teaching in the States - in which case, your students are going to hear this kind of English in their daily lives and it's valuable to hear it in the classroom, where they can ask questions about such items if they don't understand.

In Canada, for example, we often dealt with reductions like 'wammeda' (as in 'want me to') or 'waddaya'. Students may well hesitate to ask native speakers in situations outside a classroom exactly what such expressions mean, but they can feel safe to do so in class.

jwbhomer · Joined: 14 Dec 2003 Posts: 876 Location: CANADA

My partner has recently arrived in Canada and is taking LINC classes to "improve" her English. Her teachers are actually teaching the students sloppy speech habits: "wanna", "gonna" etc. Why? "Because that's the way ordinary Canadians talk." My response: "If you want to sound like a high school dropout, then go ahead and talk like that."

As for teaching this "informal English" overseas... In China I had too many students who were taught that it's OK to say "gonna" and "wanna" in conversation, and thought that it must also be OK to use it in letters and essays. I told them otherwise, and think it's very poor mentoring, indeed, to allow them to speak and write like poorly educated native speakers.

Justin Trullinger · Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 10:35 pm Post subject:

I'm not at all certain that "wanna" and "gonna" are the exclusive province of high school dropouts.

In any case, some of the aforementioned reductions ("Wadaya" or my favorite "didja") are incredibly common and well accepted.

In my opinion it would be poor mentoring to refuse, out of some sense of its "incorrectness," to refuse to teach students English as they will encounter it, to the best of one's ability. They can decide, if they share jwbhomer's attitude to "sloppy" English, not to talk like that, but at least they'll be ready to understand those who are around them.

That said, it would be equally poor mentoring to teach informal spoken English without clearly identifying it for what it is. Using appropriate register in a foreign language is a VERY important skill. I say things in the corner store that I wouldn't say in an academic conference. But then, I say things in academic conferences that would get me laughed out of the corner store.

Best,
Justin

naturegirl321 · Joined: 04 May 2003 Posts: 9041 Location: home sweet home

I do it all the time, but I know my students. I'm at an international school and they're 10 years old, So I say things like you guys, cut it out. or watcha, but they're used to it.

johnslat · Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 12:26 am Post subject:

Sorry jwbhomer - I agree with spiral78 and Justin on this one. In fact, Justin put it so well, I'm not gonna add a thing.
Regards,
John

arioch36 · Joined: 21 Jan 2003 Posts: 3589

If they are in America, I guess I couldn't care less what they are taught.

But in China, where every college student takes countless English tests that will drastically effect their future, teaching "wanna" and "gonna" doesn't cut it. When will they be using this english? On their tests that determine which middle school, which high school , which college they got to? Methinks gonna ain't too common on tests, donja ya know.

Justin

Glenski · Joined: 15 Jan 2003 Posts: 12844 Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN

I'm formal and informal in my classes. I can't make myself speak in such a stilted way that I pronounce every syllable, phoneme, and consonant with such emphasis that students hear them. That would be a disservice to them.

I speak clearly, though. At least, I try to. I refuse to teach the slurred "whaddya" and "gonna". To me, that shouldn't be part of my curriculum, and with such a limited time frame (15 classes per semester in uni), I have no time to deal with such points anyway. I do, however, point them out when students are bound to hear them on the listening recordings I play.

I've had returnees actually write such things on homework, and I point out politely that even though I don't care if they speak like that, they'd better learn to write properly, and they'd better learn how to pronounce better if they do speech contests or TOEIC/TOEFL speaking exams.

I pretty much always close my classes with informal things like, "See you later" (which may actually be "See ya later"). No harm in that. In fact, it's little things like that that help them be better than the robotic replies we hear all too often.

"How are you?"
"I'm fine, thank you, and you?"
ARRRGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!

arioch36 · Joined: 21 Jan 2003 Posts: 3589

Glenski

jwbhomer · Joined: 14 Dec 2003 Posts: 876 Location: CANADA

In the writing classes I taught, I always included lessons on tone: Formal, Direct and Informal. In those lessons I made the point that informal (or "sloppy") English may be acceptable in conversation, chatrooms, SMS etc., but is not suitable for academic and business writing.

I also preached against the overly formal, stilted English complained against above ("I am fine, thank you. And you?") Perhaps the best thing we can do for our foreign students is make them aware of which tone to use in a given situation.

johnslat · Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 2:50 pm Post subject:

Dear jwbhomer,
Ah, now we agree again.
Regards,
John

TheLongWayHome · Joined: 07 Jun 2006 Posts: 1016 Location: San Luis Piojosi

In my humble opinion, 'informal' or 'sloppy' English should be 'taught' for the sole purpose of students being able to understand it, NOT so that they can sound ridiculous when they think they sound as 'cool' as native speakers. There is little point spending hours and hours on it as most students will at some point take an English exam which will never feature wanna, gonna, coz et al.

The problem is, students now use it when they write, some even in exams - I have checked uni exams where students are supposed to write an informal letter and end it with C U soon - how informal is informal nowadays?

MO39 · Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 5:32 pm Post subject:

TheLongWayHome · Joined: 07 Jun 2006 Posts: 1016 Location: San Luis Piojosi

Stephen Jones · Joined: 21 Feb 2003 Posts: 4124

Nice to see such a profound knowledge of socio-linguistics from the TEFL crowd, particularly arioch36 whose command of the wrong-headed clich� is only equalled by his fervent belief in his own superiority.

The point only occurs because of an American convention of using non-standard spelling to replicate normal pronunciation. 'Gonna'. 'wanna', 'didja' and so on are not sloppy or bad English; they are graphic conventions to describe how the phrases are pronounced by American speakers of English of all regions, and in all registers, from the Trailer Park to the 17th century house on the plot of land they stepped on when they got off the Mayflower, and in all social situations apart from 'reading-it-out-letter-by-letter-and-sounding-like-a-self-conscious-prick'.

So, the solution is simple. Insist your students use the correct spellings, and tell them the other spellings are incorrect, should they have come across them.

And yes, you do have to specifically teach many colloquial forms, mainly to ensure that students don't use them in inappropriate registers ('dude' is not a form of address that will necessarily endear you to your teachers and bosses).