Job Discussion Forums

[redeyes]

( I initially posted the following by mistake on the General ME board -- sorry, it should be here! Any comments welcomed/appreciated. )

There seems to have been a bit of interest in comparing Saudi on these boards of late, I thought I'd add a few more queries.

Whilst researching old threads, I have read a few horror stories related to life/work in Saudi. Amongst them, some OT bizarre tales from Yanbu (Wives being flashed at to being stoned by locals on an evening�s walk, to being spied on by colleagues,to being deliberately shunned/scorned/"quarantined" for not being Muslim, to having one�s passport kept for blatantly manipulative reasons, to being attacked by colleagues!!! )

My primary query is � if one does one�s homework and research suitably � how easy is it to avoid such situations in Saudi -- or are some hardships just plain inevitable and peculiar to the KSA and to be expected?

[lmbeharry]

I worked in Korea. It was my first foray outside of the United States. Basically, I was sick of the U.S. and I wanted to get out. I took the first job in Korea that hired me, a Hagwon in Cheongju. And it was a fine job. Working hours were fair 13:00-21:00 and maybe 30 minutes of phone teaching after 21:00. The money (2004-2005) about $20,000 as I recall. But I had two problems: 1) I was wasting a $300,000 U.S. education in International Relations, Business, and Law; and 2) I am a multi-ethnic (i.e. multi-racial American with brown skin (and in case you guys don't know, South Koreans are not as friendly to people of color as they are with whites.) The big issue with my color was this: I wanted to get married (to a Korean, American, Swahili, Pole, Swiss, Nigerian - does not matter) and I could not even get a date in Korea. And I entered Korea after my 38th Birthday - so you gotta figure my biological clock is winding down. I did not want to be a 50 year-old having my first child. . So I sought a University gig in Korea, thinking that additional prestige might allow me to use my education and find a wife. I was wrong.

After the Hagwon, I was hired by University of Ulsan in Ulsan-si to teach Social Sciences. I submitted my credentials and they hired me to teach Social Sciences (I assumed, based upon the curriculum I had created). It turned out that two Hopkins grads (my BA is from Johns Hopkins) were in attendance at the University (two Koreans who had completed their PhD's while I had been an undergraduate). But politics happened. One of the Hopkins grads took over as Dean of the College of Social Sciences at Ulsan and asked me to teach English. (I've got no problem teaching English - IF THAT WAS WHAT THEY HAD HIRED ME TO DO). Over summer 2005, I came to Mongolia - beautiful countryside - but the place is corrupt. The women here in Mongolia did not care if I was pink, orange, purple, brown, white, or blue. So I figured that I could probably find my wife here and start a family. But the problem in Mongolia is corruption: Since December 2005, I have only met three Mongolian professionals who have not lied to me over substantive matters (and I do not abide when people lie to me).

Long story short. I returned to Korea in August 2005 (after my vacation), and told Ulsan University that I would finish my contract (which expired at the end of February 2006), but that I would then move to Mongolia to find a wife. The Dean (aforementioned Johns Hopkins grad) told me (like he knows me or something) that he did not believe that I was ready to be married. He told me that I should stay in Korea. In fact, he begged me, month after month, to stay in Korea. In December 2005, he pressured me to resign effective December 31 and promised that he would forward my salary to my account in Mongolia. I am still waiting.

Nevertheless, I do not believe that all Koreans are liars. I had a fair time in Korea, albeit it was always difficult to find quiet time in the National Parks, and that I could not get a date. (Basically, before I came to Mongolia, I had been with a woman on two occasions since my 30th birthday. Once when I was thirty, and once when I was 35. That was due to overwork, MBA, and law school studies. But two years in Korea and not one date!!!!! - Man, I was ready for a wife. Had been since I was 25.)

Anyway. I am seeking employment in South Korea and Saudi Arabia. I'm a homebody with two kids now so KSA would be fine, as would RoK. RoK is great for food, gadgets, and internet, like you said. And since I don't need to date, RoK would suit me perfectly now. I just will never go back to Ulsan. Like I said, I do not abide people that lie.

The deciding factors for me now are: 1) which university will allow me to pursue another piece of wallpaper (a PhD would be nice); and 2) which university is hooked into or will pay for English elementary school for my adopted daughter. My son is only five months, so he does not require schooling yet, but it would be nice to stay at the next gig for two or three years to give the family some time to grow closer together and relax a little.

I don't know Saudi Arabia (only what I've studied and what I read in the news). All I seek is an honest environment where I can raise my family, grow intellectually, and contribute to the local community.

lmb

[Mia Xanthi]

[lmbeharry]

Thank you for that input. You have been very helpful.

lmb

[Cleopatra]

I'm quite happy with my life here in Saudi Arabia, but I'd be the first to say that some people just should not come here. The ex-pat environment here is a very particular - some would say bizarre - one, and it most definately is not for everybody. If you cannot live and work in a place where you will, on a daily basis, encounter lifestyles, habits and modes of thought which are fundamentally different from your own, do not come to KSA. Of course, I am not saying that KSA is some kind of Alice in Wonderland place where nothing makes sense, but the fact is that adapting to life here requires you to put aside many of your most treasured preconceptions. Obviously, even the best adapted people occasionally feel infuriated and irritated by the practices of their students, colleagues (who of course are usually NOT Saudi) and others, but if you do not have a general acceptance of very different ways of doing things, do not come here.

As Mia says, most of the negative aspects of life here are to some extent avoidable. You can't do much about the rotten climate for at least half of the year, the uninspiring (to say the least) urban landscape, the less than satisfying work situation or the stifling social environment. As an individual, however, you can do much to build your own 'niche' and create quite a happy life for yourself. This involves time, as well as some determination and independence on your part. As someone with a family and therefore a natural interest outside of work, you are in a good starting position.

[lmbeharry]

Thanks Cleopatra. But I really don't know what to make of the conflicting scenarios. Guess I gotta take a chance either way. I certainly want my wife Daarii to be comfortable (she's Mongolian - and very, very strong).

I guess I must wait until if/when Taibah calls me. Meanwhile, I'm also waiting on Woosong University in Daejon RoK. I know the city, and they have a Business School wherein I could earn a second Master's. I'm pretty sure Woosong also has an elementary school, too, for Oyushka.

Taibah may give me the chance to earn a PhD in Finance and do some Finance consulting through the Uni.

But we have to be confident that my wife will be comfortable in KSA. We are all infidels in this family. I am a non-practicing Catholic (by culture and not necessarily by faith), and Daarii's Buddhist. The kids? They'll make up their own minds when they reach the age. I'll teach them the ten commandments, and introduce them to the Pentateuch (and maybe Quran also). But they will make up their own minds when they are old enough.

Anyway, I'm rambling. Probably the Mongolian vodka. By the way, I'm not a heavy drinker of alcohol. It's just that I'm sick and tired of the corruption in this city called Ulaanbaatar. I need to get out soon.

lmb

[Cleopatra]

I think what's missing from this discussion is the recognition that, while Riyadh or Jeddah may not be Paris or London, they are fairly cosmopolitan cities where foreigners of various nationalities are commonplace. I'm not saying that there is much mixing between locals and foreigners - there isn't - but people in the major cities here are far more used to seeing foreigners on a daily basis than are people in very many parts of the world.

Non-Muslims are ten a rial here. So long as you don't practice in public or even think about proselytysing, your faith (if any) is unlikely to be of interest to anyone. Whether or not your wife will be comfortable here is a question nobody can answer right now - not even you. The only way to know for sure is to come here and try it. Some Asian women do get fed up of the general assumption that they are low-paid Philippino workers, but than, many "Western" women here get fed up of the general assumption that they are 'loose'! Just be aware that your wife won't, by any stretch of the imagination, be the first non-Muslim, non-Caucasian, non-"Western" woman to live here. Nationality is a poor predictor of happiness - or lack of same - in KSA.

[windstar]

I believe you are aware that Taibah is in Madina and just outside of the Haram circle. As I hear Madina is the only city tobacco sale is prohibited forget about alcohol. Many people say for non-Muslims it is a real challenge. Almost all shopping centres are within the Haram circle where non-Muslims are not allowed to enter.

[lmbeharry]

Windstar, I am a binge smoker/drinker. I quit all the time. When Arslan was born in November, I quit. I started working out each morning 7:00 a.m. I was in the zone, then Hartford Institute wrongly terminated my contract (Jan 10). No problem, I have the family - no desire to drink or smoke.

Then, I plugged my portable hard drive into someone's computer. Now, what I am about to say may seem quite petty. But the data on this back-up drive was the accumulation of five year's worth of research and work. Anyway, a trojan virus from the host computer PARTITIONED my drive (early February). That did it for me. I bought a pack of smokes that week to figure out if I could recover photographs, personal writings, business e-books, medical e-books, law e-books (5 years worth of work). And even then, I was not binging.

Then I gave Institute of Finance a second chance (I had worked for them in 2006. The first time, they would not pay me nor would they help me get a visa). So I set up the curriculum for business English, I found the book, I printed and copied the book, and started teaching. After teaching for a week and a half, I asked the assistant they had assigned to me to print out student name cards (in order that I could more easily get to know my students; I would have printed out the names myself, but sans cash for printer ink); she goes AWOL. The students (all adults, mind you) decide to have a 3-hour social on my and Institute of Finance time. One female in particular, is carrying on like at a wedding... I asked this woman 5 times to keep quiet. Then I asked her to leave the room. (Mind you, these were adults acting like 5-year olds).

Next day, the school tells me that the students do not like me and my services are no longer desired.

THIS IS MONGOLIA FOR YOU!!!!

Anyway, my binge started then (about the 3rd week of February)....

Actually, my binge did not start then. Around the same time, a former student of mine asked me to help him with a business plan. I invited him over to my apartment and I worked through the basic details with him. Next day, he calls me and asks me if I could meet his father (I won't name the man because I happen to respect that he might actually be producing a good bit of value for Mongolia). Anyway, this individual asked me if I wanted to be the financial analyst for the corporation he was starting. I said OK, and we agreed it was to be a trial basis. I worked there for a week researching logistics and transportation issues. My only assignment that week was: present on transportation/logistics. I spent the only week I worked there on the task and created a hell of a presentation on transportation - history, theory, linear programming solutions. Well, as it happens, these guys were seemingly testing me. It seems that these Mongolians are not sophisticated enough to recognize bonafide credentials. Anyway, I worked there one week, and then they let me go.

So, wrongfully terminated from Hartford Institute, played (preyed) upon by Institute of Finance and Economics, and tested by the last company within a span of less than eight weeks (not to mention the nasty flu bug I had in January). Hell, most people would have gone insane. Me, I drink a little vodka until I can vacate this hell-hole! Oh, if you're curious, see my posting about the Ulaanbaatar Elite International School where I worked 2006-2007. And don't think for one second that I am insane. I'm a good guy. This place, this Ulaanbaatar (quasi-socialist, frontier, lawless town) is insane. I'm completely healthy, and not about to lose it. But I need to get out before they take any more from me.

That's when the binge started - about three weeks now. But understand - Binge - not addiction.

I JUST NEED TO GET OUT OF THIS PLACE!!!!!!

Sorry to trouble you with my petty life right now, but this place sucks!

lmb

[lmbeharry]

Last Thing before signing off. I gotta get to bed.

This is great therapy for me. This is about the only place where I can actually vent.

Thanks guys, for letting me vent. I really appreciate it.

lmb

[johnslat]

Dear Imbeharry,
As a former binge drinker, I can definitely say that in my case at least it was an addiction (still is, actually - but now I don't drink, going on seven years.)
Regards,
John

[Stephen Jones]

[lmbeharry]

Stephen, I'm not sure whether you're being facetious about the intellectual environment"?"

Yeah, a salary would be good, and a quiet space in a library where I could read and do some hardcore financial analysis.

Personal problems to sort out? My personal problem is Ulaanbaatar. (My wife hates the place, too. Since I met her she's been begging me to leave. Me, I had grandiose notions that I could teach at University here and end up having a house in the countryside where her extended family lives.)

I took a brisk walk early this a.m. to clear my head. Then I applied for another few university positions, two in Korea and one in Riyadh. Gotta get back on the horse, you know.

lmb

[veiledsentiments]

Why only Saudi? Why not the other Gulf countries?

VS

[lmbeharry]

I applied for a position in Egypt (with the British University) and in Kuwait (Business English).

I haven't found any other job postings in the Middle East as yet.