Job Discussion Forums

[johnslat]

Dear Cleopatra,
I think you're right; I don't recall any mention of the "New Year" in the Arab News before. But as for you're being an "old cynic", heck, you're not so old.
Regards,
John

[johnslat]

Friedman's back - with a 5 part series that might be interesting. Here's a teaser from Part One:

" But today, alas, there is no bedrock agreement on what is shameful, what is outside the boundary of a civilized world. Unlike the Soviet Union, the Islamist terrorists are neither a state subject to conventional deterrence or international rules, nor individuals deterred by the fear of death. And their home societies, in too many cases, have not stigmatized their acts as "shameful." In too many cases, their spiritual leaders have provided them with religious cover, and their local charities have provided them with money. That is why suicide bombing is spreading.

We cannot change other societies and cultures on our own. But we also can't just do nothing in the face of this mounting threat. What we can do is partner with the forces of moderation within these societies to help them fight the war of ideas. Because ultimately this is a struggle within the Arab-Muslim world, and we have to help our allies there, just as we did in World Wars I and II.

This column is the first in a five-part series on how we can do that."

What I especially liked to see was the following:

" We cannot change other societies and cultures on our own. "

Would somebody please tell the current administration this?

Regards,
John

[veiledsentiments]

John,

As I understand it, our leader can't (says he won't, bet he can't) even read - gets all his information from his 'controllers' and since they would vehemently disagree with Tom, therein lies the problem.

VS

[scot47]

Crytal balls are not my line. I would just caution against predictions.

In 1970-1972 when I was first here I thought this place would collapse any day. What happened ? The oil hike of 1973 and undreamed of prosperity.

After the "Juhaiman Incident" in 1979 "experts" were predicting more such disturbances. Internally nothing much happened - maybe because the fundos were too busy concentrating on Afghanistan, together with their buddies from Langley, Virginia.

(For those who have forgotten, the "Juhaiman Incident" involved a large number of armed Islamists occupying the Grand Mosque in Mecca. They were defeated by military force and there was a large number of executions.)

Be wary of those who foretell the future whether they be the three Witches in the Scottish play or Mr Friedman. Knowledge of the future is not vouchsafed to mortal man - or woman.

[Cleopatra]

Hi All,

I agree with you Scot, the Fall of the House of Saud (anyone read that book?) has been predicted many times in the past, and nothing has happened. That may well turn out to be the case this time. I think the problem is that most of those "experts" don't actually have a clue about the way Saudi society works, and are not aware that revolutions are not the thing here, and that it's more likely that the socieity will find its own way to move forward - but not neccessarily according to a "Western" timetable.

As for Friedman, I'm no fan, but I do think he has a point when he says that what we're dealing with is not so much "Islam vs the "West" but a civil war within Islam itself. I think that is very plain from current goings-on in KSA, even within the Royal family.

As for the "West" helping out 'moderates'within the Islamic world, that is laudable, but unlikely to happen with Terminator lll in the White House, and Poodle Dog in Whitehall. Also, I don't hink it's entirely fair (though entirely predictable) to put all the blame on the Islamic world, as though "Western" policies and the occupation of Palestine were of no relevance whatsoever!

[johnslat]

Dear Cleopatra,
Yet once again, I agree with all your points. My only addition would be that, while I concur

"it's (not) entirely fair (though entirely predictable) to put all the blame on the Islamic world, as though "Western" policies and the occupation of Palestine were of no relevance whatsoever!"

I would also like to see the Islamic world accepting at least some of the responsibility for its current condition. Denial and putting all the blame on others are, unfortunately, fairly widespread practices there, in my opinion.
Regards,
John

[Mark100]

The problem in Saudi is that no one seems to really know what is going on re the extent of the problem and that most definitely includes the Royals themselves....
One thing is for sure something will give if they don't find something for the mass of restless unemployed youth to do...no hope, no future, no money, equals recipe for disaster.
Apportioning blame is also non productive. There is plenty of evidence to suggest that the west and the Saudis themselves have contributed to the currrent situation.
The question is what are they going to do to help remedy the situation.

[Cleopatra]

Hi all,

John, you are right of course. The Saudis - and the ARab world in general - must shoulder a large part of the blame for the mess their countries are in now. Israel is a convenient scapegoat for them, just as the "War on Terror" is for Dubya and his sidekicks.

However, my fear is that the world is becoming increasingly polarized between "Muslims" and "Westerners". In the current climate, when the Arab world feels - not without reason - that it is under attack, things are not favourable for encouraging introspection and self-criticism among Arabs, however neccessary it might be.

Of course, a stark division between "Islam" and the "West" was precisely what Osama wanted all along. Looks like he's getting his wish!

I agree with you, Mark, that th ehuge numbers of unemployed youth is a ticking time bomb for the Saudis. Combined with a lack of democracy, it will force these men underground and straight into the arms of "fundamentalists". It has done so already, to a considerable extent. The government may be taking steps to remedy the dire situation, but as both John and I have asked before, the question is whether they have left it too late already.

[johnslat]

Dear Mark100,
"Apportioning blame is also non productive."

Well, approtioning it, perhaps. But claiming it in an essential first step to working on the problems. And even recognizing that there IS a problem has to come before that. Unfortunately, both the Bush White House and most Islamic governments are rife with denial, misconceptions and blame-shifting.
Regards,
John