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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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 Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2004 8:34 pm Post subject: |
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| You Gotta Have Wa is indeed based on baseball. However, wa is harmony in Japanese, and the author tried to show how the work ethic of wa was so predominant in his field, baseball. |
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avahanian
Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 123
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| Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2004 8:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Gordon wrote: |
Avahanian,
I have never come across anyone who has so vehemently defended a country they have never been to. I am curious as to why. Then you turn around and ask us for help. |
Hi Gordon,
I don't defend Japan or Japanese people, but I do defend someone's right to not get crapped on if he asks a genuine question.
I also defend the right to have one's own outlook on life and to not consider everything a few people say as Gospel.
When you go to a mechanic to have your car fixed, you have a right to get a second or third or fourth opinion, correct?
I don't doubt that all of you are more knowledgeable about Japan than I am (having lived and worked there for a long time)
What I doubt is the way you look at things, which is a matter of opinion, and not fact.
Having lived and worked in many different countries, I can tell you that your experience in a country is mostly what you make of it - not the work culture imposed on you, not the language barrier, none of that.
It's what you make of it.....if you have the outlook that things are going to be difficult when you go to Japan, or China, or wherever, then things will be difficult.
I have the outlook that things can be accomplished if one puts his mind to it.
Fair enough, to each their own.....I respect all of your views and I don't want to argue with anyone anymore
now let's lighten up the mood in here....things are too serious 
cheers |
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Gordon
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 5309
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2004 1:10 am Post subject: |
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Avahanian,
I respect your views and your experiences abroad. However, Japan is unlike any other country I've lived in as far as how they dictate the way you dress, act, behave, etc.. Sure you could walk around like an oaf and do your own thing, but you will not get any respect. So if you want to adapt to the country, there is a steep learning curve. You can't compare adapting to Japan and Spain as the same(maybe you are thinking this). Have you ever lived (more than 6 months) in an Eastern Asia country before? Learning the language is also unlike any other language you've tried either, unless you can speak Mandarin, Thai or Cantonese. |
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unchi pants
Joined: 20 Dec 2003
Posts: 64
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| Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2004 3:37 am Post subject: |
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| It makes us feel better and more important when we convince ourselves (and others) that working and living in Japan is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO hard .... BUT WE DID IT!!!!! We made it! We adapted and managed to survive ... BUT NO-ONE ELSE CAN DO IT! |
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Celeste
Joined: 17 Jan 2003
Posts: 814
Location: Fukuoka City, Japan
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| Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2004 7:43 am Post subject: |
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I was worried that living in Japan would be very very hard. In fact, I found it easy.
Why?
Because I had lived in South Korea for 2 years before I came here. It was much more oppressive, so by comparison Japan seems like a cake-walk. Many of my friends from Western countries find Japanese society very puzzling and frustrating. |
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shmooj
Joined: 11 Sep 2003
Posts: 1758
Location: Seoul, ROK
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| Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2004 7:56 am Post subject: |
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| unchi pants wrote: |
| It makes us feel better and more important when we convince ourselves (and others) that working and living in Japan is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO hard .... BUT WE DID IT!!!!! We made it! We adapted and managed to survive ... BUT NO-ONE ELSE CAN DO IT! |
True, but then the fact that your pants are full of unchi speaks volumes mate  |
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unchi pants
Joined: 20 Dec 2003
Posts: 64
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| Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2004 8:29 am Post subject: |
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Oops! |
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Brooks
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 1369
Location: Sagamihara
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| Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2004 11:51 pm Post subject: |
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my two cents:
my brother knows a guy in New York who is good at computers and knows Japanese well. He worked in Tokyo for four years doing translation for a software company. He made a lot of money.
But he decided to quit because of those enkais he had to go to with his boss. His boss lived out in the suburbs and had a long commute and probably drank 5 nights a week. The New Yorker drinks but he got sick of it because you can`t refuse your boss.
So he had to quit.
my situation: I decided to stay at my job for another year. However I found out an unwritten rule: that they don`t want foreign teachers to stay four years or more (something about taxes). But I can. Why? Well, did I refuse an invitation to an enkai? Do I stay later at school? Yes (after six generally). Does it mean I am really working? Sometimes but sometimes I am just unwinding (my last class ends at 4:30).
And don`t forget omiyage and that I get along with my boss.
And I found out that my girlfriend`s father said that I can`t just live with my girlfriend - either we get married or we have to break up.
In America I wouldn`t have to deal with that.
In Japan there is the carrot and the stick. The carrot is the good salary I get. |
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Brooks
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 1369
Location: Sagamihara
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| Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2004 11:55 pm Post subject: |
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my two cents:
my brother knows a guy in New York who is good at computers and knows Japanese well. He worked in Tokyo for four years doing translation for a software company. He made a lot of money.
But he decided to quit because of those enkais he had to go to with his boss. His boss lived out in the suburbs and had a long commute and probably drank 5 nights a week. The New Yorker drinks but he got sick of it because you can`t refuse your boss.
So he had to quit.
my situation: I decided to stay at my job for another year. However I found out an unwritten rule: that they don`t want foreign teachers to stay four years or more (something about taxes). But I can. Why? Well, did I refuse an invitation to an enkai? Do I stay later at school? Yes (after six generally). Does it mean I am really working? Sometimes but sometimes I am just unwinding (my last class ends at 4:30).
And don`t forget omiyage and that I get along with my boss.
And I found out that my girlfriend`s father said that I can`t just live with my girlfriend - either we get married or we have to break up.
In America I wouldn`t have to deal with that.
In Japan there is the carrot and the stick. The carrot is the good salary I get. |
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PAULH
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 4672
Location: Western Japan
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| Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2004 12:27 am Post subject: |
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| Brooks wrote: |
my situation: I decided to stay at my job for another year. However I found out an unwritten rule: that they don`t want foreign teachers to stay four years or more (something about taxes). But I can. Why? Well, did I refuse an invitation to an enkai? Do I stay later at school? Yes (after six generally). Does it mean I am really working? Sometimes but sometimes I am just unwinding (my last class ends at 4:30).
And don`t forget omiyage and that I get along with my boss.
And I found out that my girlfriend`s father said that I can`t just live with my girlfriend - either we get married or we have to break up.
In America I wouldn`t have to deal with that.
In Japan there is the carrot and the stick. The carrot is the good salary I get. |
Brooks
you dont say where you are working but I have not heard of schools pushing teachers out the door involuntarily, except at universities and thos eon limited term contracts. i am in that situation.
If you are in a conversation school even if a contract fi for one year, they really need a good reason not to renew you in my opinion, or at least give you a reason. Its my understanding that if you have been renewed several times you are considered permanent and they have to give you a reason for not keeping you on. Probably a good idea to contact a union and see what they have to say.
In my case the date of departure is written on my contract and there is not much I can do about it but it has been known for the school to 'move the goalposts' when its convenient for them
I can not help you with your girlfriend. what does your girlfriend feel about it? is she prepared to stand up to her father? I dont believe the old man should be blackmailing you into taking a position. he probably wants whats best for his daughter but they can be a bit conservative and traditional (feudally minded?) and worried about the long term . Maybe not a good idea to get on the wrong side of the old man but im sure shes old enough to know what she wants too. |
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cafebleu
Joined: 10 Feb 2003
Posts: 404
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| Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2004 2:45 am Post subject: |
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Unichipants - I am not having a go at you as I find you to be a helpful and considerate poster with many good things to say. However, I think you are missing the point about posts from people such as myself and others who give the minuses of having to set yourself up in Japan and the minuses of living here.
I don`t see anything wrong with educating Avahanian about the horrendous commutes via public transport here in big cities such as Tokyo, especially as he draws comparisons between life in LA and other western cities that have little or nothing to do with life here. Nor about pointing out other things he knows little or nothing about to do with Japan. I think the posts for Tre were giving good advice even if he may already be aware of aspects of Japanese life, having visited here before.
That`s all! |
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unchi pants
Joined: 20 Dec 2003
Posts: 64
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| Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2004 4:01 am Post subject: |
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Hi Cafe,
| Quote: |
| I find you to be a helpful and considerate poster with many good things to say |
Domo arigato Cafe! I always enjoy reading your posts aswell. I'm sorry to hear about the work situation in Kyushu. I can understand you wanting to stay living there... My partner is from Fukuoka and raves about the place... Although admits that Tokyo is much better for work. Anyway, I'm planning to head down that way soon for a visit. And must see places to visit?
I guess one of the main problems with internet is that you can't tell the tone in which the message is written... I'm sure the tone of my messages is misinterpreted and similarly I misinterpret the tone of others.
Anyway....
Before I came to Japan, my "abroad living experience" was mainly in European countries. I even lived in the USSR in the late 80's ... And I have to admit that even life in communist Russia was easier to get used to than life in Tokyo. Yes, at first, when I came here, everything seemed REALLY WEIRD. However, I really enjoyed my work and other aspects of Tokyo life, so I dealt with it and got used to it. I wanted to live here so I perservered.
My point simply was (probably not very clearly stated) that every city/country/job/whatever everywhere in the world has its pluses and minuses. But if you do want to experience work or life in that place, then you deal with the minuses. That's just how it is.
Reading the discussion though, I tend to think the argument is more about "outlook on life" rather than about the practicalities (like commuting distance) of living here. Some posters do appear to have a very fiercely "gloom and doom" outlook (again, as I stated before, the tone of the message is open to misinterpretation) and be very defensive of that outlook. Whereas others have a more positive outlook. It's like the old "The glass is half empty of the glass is half full" thing.
I like to think positively aswell. Seek and ye shall find! Regarding commuting distance in Tokyo... My first job in Tokyo, I lived 10 minutes walk away, or five minutes by bike. In my current job I live about 30 minutes away by train. Some days though, I take a leisurely stroll through Meiji Jingu and down to Shibuya and catch the train (one stop)from there. Total time: about 45 minutes.
Anyway, like I was saying, if you want to stay here, you deal with the negative aspects... As all of us have done! And let's be honest guys... Yes, it is a weird place at first, but you can get used to it. We did! And was it that hard?
Regarding the original poster and wanting to work in the IT industry... I personally feel there is nothing wrong with changing careers or having some other aspiration... AS LONG AS, while you do the job you are 100% comitted to that job and do your best AND fulfill your contractual obligations. Everyone changes jobs. It's normal. We are English teachers, not monks and nuns.
I'm not trying to be troll here or get a reaction... but perhaps attacking the original poster about his ultimately wanting to work in the IT industry is a case of the tall poppy syndrome?
Anyway, time to get back to work. |
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avahanian
Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 123
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| Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2004 6:34 am Post subject: |
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| Gordon wrote: |
Avahanian,
I respect your views and your experiences abroad. However, Japan is unlike any other country I've lived in as far as how they dictate the way you dress, act, behave, etc.. Sure you could walk around like an oaf and do your own thing, but you will not get any respect. So if you want to adapt to the country, there is a steep learning curve. You can't compare adapting to Japan and Spain as the same(maybe you are thinking this). Have you ever lived (more than 6 months) in an Eastern Asia country before? Learning the language is also unlike any other language you've tried either, unless you can speak Mandarin, Thai or Cantonese. |
hi Gordon,
I'm sure that's absolutely right, Japan does have different standards and customs, many of which are thousands of years old, and many of which are different from places like Spain.
To be honest I haven't lived in Asia but have lived in North America, the Middle East and Europe.
I'm sure Japan (and Asia) are different
I have been learning Japanese and I will say it's much easier than I expected it to be....I find the grammar very simple. The writing however, is another story....but hey we're talking about conversation, right?
cheers |
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PAULH
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 4672
Location: Western Japan
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| Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2004 11:37 am Post subject: |
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| avahanian wrote: |
I have been learning Japanese and I will say it's much easier than I expected it to be....I find the grammar very simple. The writing however, is another story....but hey we're talking about conversation, right?
cheers |
The grammar (verb endings etc) is pretty straight forward and its easy to learn to speak and construct basic sentences. pronunciation compared to English is a snap.
Where Japanese becomes difficult is not so much the actual words and grammar i, but the way Japanese is spoken and how Japanese communicate with each other. Polite language, honorifics, dialects between different regions. 5 ways of saying 'I' and 'you' depending on who you are speaking to, evasion and hidden meaning 'maybe' means 'no' 'hai' doesnt mean 'yes' etc. Subjects are not used in sentences so you have to be clear about who or what is being spoken about. Women and men use different terms etc so you have to watch about learning Japanese off your girlfriend so you don't sound effeminate in your japanese.
I have also found that if you want to improve your conversational ability you will have to increase your vocabulary which means reading alot which means learning Kanji. There is only so much you can pick up in a bar or off the TV so you have to know the context. reading subtitles and manga, magazine articles and short stories etc helps. |
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shmooj
Joined: 11 Sep 2003
Posts: 1758
Location: Seoul, ROK
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| Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2004 2:15 pm Post subject: |
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I speak good Japanese and I have never bothered learning honorific grammar. Simply have never needed it in 6 years here. I use my Japanese around my school (small and friendly), at the pub, when I play sport and to socialise with a whole host of people. I also use it at church where I do interpretation for, among others, my wife.
I'm not blowing my own trumpet for the sake of it. What I'm trying to say here is that you can get by fine and dandy without going to the lengths of learning how to communicate in the plethora of styles that PaulH rightly says exist but, IMO, wrongly implies you need to learn.
For "I", learn boku (informal - male) and watashi (semi-formal) and there you are - one example.
You will get used to hearing honorific forms after a while here and so long as you recognize them through plenty of experience that is fine.
Speaking Japanese is, IMO, not that tough.
Reading is a killer. I got drill books for the supermarket bookshops and learned the elementary school kanji from Grade 1 through 6. Took about 4 years to get fluent in these (reading that is - I gave up on writing as I never need it) and has helped IMMENSELY and given me the edge in a whole range of situations where other foreigners are out of their depths.
Now, I'm sure PaulH is going to take me to the cleaners  |
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