Job Discussion Forums

fluffyhamster · Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 11:38 pm Post subject:

Heh, you're welcome, John! It took me a while also to notice that there was an Advanced Search function on Google, compare that to the basic/raw search results etc. Anyway, happy hunting, now that you know that little trick! Smile

nocturnalme · Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 73 Location: Gdansk, Poland

Is it a rule to never split an infinitive? Wink

johnslat · Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 1:24 pm Post subject:

Dear nocturnalme,

Not if you're willing to boldly go where no misinformed pedant has ever gone before.

Regards,
John

SueH · Joined: 01 Feb 2003 Posts: 1022 Location: Northern Italy

This thread helped me out last night. Smile

I was hosting a dinner here in Italy and asked someone how her university paper written in English had been received, as I'd done a quick proof read and some corrections. Apparently the professor had tutted about 'mistakes in English' without specifying what they were. 'Was she madrelingua?' I asked. No - well, she was probably applying some rules incorrectly. Smile

I had left in a few constructions in the paper which as a native speaker I wouldn't have used myself but they weren't actually incorrect, and I didn't want it to seem as if somebody else had written the paper.

We had a discussion about teaching rules and also about how we use graded language depending on audience before the wine took over and we moved on to Italian politics!

Justin Trullinger · Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 4:38 pm Post subject:

The "infinitive split" rule, from what I've read, seems to have come along in the victorian era- rather than grammar constructed based on the language itself, this is a great example of grammar "authorities" trying to perfect a language, imposing their own views, not of how English is, but how it should be. (In their view.) At that time, Latin was considered the most perfect of languages, and in Latin infinitives are never split, therefore...

Another great example of a rule that gets ridiculous in the logical extreme is the one about ending sentences with prepositions, as in:

johnslat · Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 4:50 pm Post subject:

Just a small postscript: infinitives are never split in Latin because they can't be; the infinitive is one word.

E.G. amare - to love

TheLongWayHome · Joined: 07 Jun 2006 Posts: 1016 Location: San Luis Piojosi

What's all this about rules?!? Rules are just for ENGLISH TEACHERS to understand their own language. Rules are useless to students - they do not understand grammar. They can just about give you a shoddy definition of what a verb, adjective and noun are in their own language. For god's sake don't let them apply it to a language they don't know!

There is no 'rule' or grammatical term that can't be explained by drawing stick-men (stick-people)... and whatever happened to pointing over your shoulder to indicate the past instead of actually explaining it?!

If the stick-person is on the right hand side of the verb and wearing a skirt it's her, if there's no skirt it's him, if there are two it's them. For god's sake don't call them object pronouns - resist!

MO39 · Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 8:15 pm Post subject:

Believe it or not, TLWH, I have adult students in Mexico who learned English through grammar in their younger years and understand such arcane grammatical terms as "verb" and "adjective" (even in their own language) and thus can benefit from brief explanations from me using these (and other) such far-out words.

SueH · Joined: 01 Feb 2003 Posts: 1022 Location: Northern Italy

or, TLWH, you get students who ask you 'Is that the predicate'?

"I'll get back to you on that".. Smile

Justin Trullinger · Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 2:13 pm Post subject:

Pointing over your shoulder to indicate past assumes some common cultural ground- not all people equate "past" with "behind" and "future" with "in front." That's a very anglo visualization- I don't know where you're teaching, but in a lot of contexts, it would be confusing to many students.

To avoid this issue, I often use clocks and simple calendars. So that past is "defined" or shown, rather than explained.

And:

TheLongWayHome · Joined: 07 Jun 2006 Posts: 1016 Location: San Luis Piojosi

Llamalicious · Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 4:49 pm Post subject:

johnslat · Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 4:53 pm Post subject:

Dear Llamalicious,

Ah, I learned something new - I'd never have guessed the etymology:

Etymology:Middle English papejay parrot, from Middle French papegai, papejai, from Arabic babghā'
Date: 1596
popinjay: a strutting supercilious person

Now there's a word that needs more common usage.

Regards,
John

Justin Trullinger · Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 3:06 pm Post subject:

Oddly, from the same root as "papagayo" which is used for certain jungle parrots in Spanish.

And wasn't there a character in The Magic Flute called Papagayno? (Spelling made up, it's been a long time. But I think the root is right...)

Best,
Justin

SueH · Joined: 01 Feb 2003 Posts: 1022 Location: Northern Italy

Pa-pa-pa-pa-papageno - Papageno - The Magic Flute indeed.

The Italian word is pappagallo, but in some dialects it's spoken like 'papagaio', which is similar to Middle French, and probably comes from Franco-Provenzal influences.