Job Discussion Forums

[Shaman]

Lethargic non-talkative class?

"Okay, since no one wants to talk, perhaps we'll have a visit from our old friend Mr. Present Perfect followed by a rousing chat about globalization."

Watch how talkative they become in order to avoid that lesson.

Shaman

[Dr.J]

Master should deal with cause of disease, not symptom.
Lateness, not want work, cheating, all same cause.

In Judo, if you want to topple your opponent, you must come in close.

Only from this position can you know and control your opponent.

Get to know them and their families. Out of school, socially. You will come to understand them. Or, you won't. Then quit.

Either way, problem solved.

[johnslat]

Dear Dr. J,
Ah, Emperor of us poor grasshoppers, your words are sparking droplets of truth dropped into the murky sea of this thread. And yet - a small problem must be raised, O Wise One. In a society such as Saudi Arabia where getting to know your students on a personal level, out of school, socially, and visiting their families is unheard of ( due, O Sea of Infinite Wisdom, to the restrictions of this culture ), how can we poor Masters apply your most judicious and sage counsel? Enlighten us, O Dispenser of Ultimate Reality.
Regards,
John

[richard ame]

Hi
I do believe a lot of what the orginal poster sent is pretty standard stuff in most classes today the Turkish ones are no exceptionand the mobiles are a problem as most kids have them ,however these issues are usually the subject of most meetings with co-ordinators /department heads and usually one is told what you can and can't do .John Slat hit the nail pretty squarely on the head in my opinion and the hard first softer later approch is the most effective one to adopt in my experience ,once you let them think they are on top your life will be hell keep them on their toes don't give an inch for the first 3 months at least and they will accept when you come to their class it's not party time . Develop a routine and stick to it they need to know whats expected of them an old teacher once said to me teach the best forget the rest .

[guest of Japan]

Ah, Mr. Ame, apparantly that wise old teacher never had to sit through the weekly "students falling through the cracks" lecture so common in American education. Maybe I'm still too young and idealistic, but I can't use that method yet.

I noticed a few points raised about using negative reinforcement techniques such has stiict punishments for role violations such as students getting marked absent, or taking away their cell phones. I think these are great ideas, but I can't use them. I've been advised by my superiors not to do anything confrontational with my students. They say to let the Japanese teachers do this, but all of the English teachers I work with are afraid of the students. Rightly so, since there is no punishment for hitting a teacher. As far as using grades as an enforcement technique-my students do not care about their grades. I can fail them, then the students are required to do some summer course work. If the students don't do the summer course work they will still pass. My school is trying to bluff it's way through discipline and it is failing miserablely. My school has rules upon rules but absolutely no repercussions. To make matters just a little more complicated most of my students can't speak any Enlish beyond "Hello. How are you? I'm fine thankyou." And I am not allowed to speak Japanese (which I'm hardly profficient at).

My average class size is 40 students and I teach 10 ninety minute classes a week so it is hard to establish personal connections. I'm having some luck with singling out students quickly when problems arise, but if the student refuses to accommodate me then I have no recourse.

If anyone has any advise which fits those parameters then I'm all ears (or eyes in this case).

Thanks for starting this post Zachiah, I really need it. Mark

[Afra]

I teach in the UAE, where the classroom problems are probably similar to Saudi. I also have very similar rules to johnslat but I don't set them. The first day of each new class, I have the students do an exercise in groups, they have to tell me what they expect from me as the teacher. We discuss each item and agree on a set of classroom 'rules'. Next, I ask them to make a list of what they think I expect of them and we compare their classroom list with my prepared list, come to agreement over non-matching areas and those are the 'rules' for the semester. It seems to work and, like John, I have always had excellent student evaluations.

[zakiah25]

Richard
Thank you for your post but what I'm really trying to do here is to delve into the "realm of the unknown" as once again, I think that Guest of Japan is getting at and I'm trying to discover some innovative or creative solutions to these problems. That's what I meant in my original post about cultural influences. You see here in Oman, there are some colleges where the administration and Department heads don't speak English, they speak Arabic so you can hardly arrange a meeting to discuss disciplinary issues and most likely they would rather "sweep it under the Persian rug" anyway!
Many teachers just struggle through and do their best or others give up and turn a blind eye to some of these issues rather than rocking the boat.
I like John's idea of establishing the "ground rules" initially but perhaps with some student input so that they feel it's their classroom policy rather than a prescriptive one laid down by the teacher (thanks Afra for that one)
. Dr J's idea of getting to know the students and perhaps their interests is a good one to use for lesson motivational purposes so that you actually relate the lesson around their interests rather than trying to teach an Omani things like how to get to Heathrow airport on a train (when they've never seen a train before, never used public transport, never been out of the country) from Picadilly Circus.

[Kent F. Kruhoeffer]

Hello zakiah25 et al:

Sorry for my late reply. I've been busy beating students and stomping on cell phones. (just kidding about the cell phones!)

With regard to #2 on your list: (You have a badly behaved individual or group who cause continual class disruptions) I do have one suggestion that I don't think has been mentioned yet: the silent treatment

Especially with kids and young teens, this technique seems to work well for me. When things start getting out of hand, I simply close my mouth for 10 minutes. Not 2 minutes, not 5 minutes; TEN full minutes. Sometimes I even open a book and completely ignore them for that 10 minutes ... depending on the severity of the violation.

It's amazing how powerful this can be. Younger students expect you to get angry; scold them; to yell at them; to threaten them, etc ... and when you don't do what they expect, it takes the air out of their balloon.

On top of the powerful psychological effect of silence, there's also a 'group effect' going on, in which the other members of the class often scold the perpetrators for you.

Anyway, it's one more technique to consider for the right circumstance. I gave up on yelling and threatening my students a long, long time ago. It's their dime; if they want to waste it by farting around with their cellphone or making paper airplanes ... it's ok with me. I always have a good book nearby.

Best wishes,
kEnt

[richard ame]

Hi goj
Inote with interest that schools /universities in Turkey and Japan are not so different inas much that the kids rule the roost if you let them,and at the end of the day if they fail or pass is not infulenced by their foreign teacher ,therefore what respect will they have for us ,in a nut shell not a lot ,so the way forward is to get them on your side or am I stating the bloody obvious. I still believe if they are told in no uncertain terms what the limits are and what you expect from them and vice versa is a pretty good way to start,yes someone else mentioned it, I'm just reinforcing that point. Naturally it does help a lot if the support is there from others ,collegues and those higher up the chain of command .it should be all part of a wider and organised system of student control which over here is sadly lacking ,the type of control I now enjoy only comes with experience and learning from a lot of mistakes if you are basically on your own then I have to say you should try to avoid taking the job too seriously that was one of my big mistakes very few people over here do thats why the schooland education system is in such a mess basically its a money making racket and we are just shop window . Sorry if I sound cynical but I used to be idealistic and enthaustic once upon a time .

[guest of Japan]

Mr. Ame. Thanks for jumping back into the fray. Perhaps the most useful piece of advise you gave me was that of not taking work more seriously. I obviously can't undo years of poor education, psychological problems, issues with self-esteem, and so on. I've actually been told by the dispatch company that hired me to work in my school to teach only the ones who want to learn and let the rest rot. (I"m paraphrasing of course).

I think I was a bit to permissive in the beginning because I wasn't sure of my boundaries and what I could expect of my Japanese co-teacher (I use this title loosely). I'm currently trying to be a little more dominant in the classroom, but of course it's a slow process.

I do very much appreciate your support and advice.

Kent, Zachiah, John Slat, Afra, Dr. J and everyone else, thank you for submitting your techniques as well. It's so nice to have genuine discourse about this topic.

Kent your silent approach used to work wonders for me in America, but it does nothing for me here. The students just assume that I've ended the lesson for the day and that they can go about their business.

Afra, I wholeheartedly agree with the way that you work with the students to set a standard. I once did an essay on creating a classroom constitution which created the roles for the society and a governing body of students (with the teacher) to enforce those rules. I meant to use that technique as a history teacher, but my superiors were hesitant to let me try something so unproven when I was still new. My problem here is that I can't communicate with my students at a high enough level to create an agreed upon list of rules.

Zachiah, I think you and I are thinking in tune. May I ask what level and age your students are? As I said before I have extremely low level high school students. They are for the most part very retarded in cognitive development and social development. I have some students who don't or can't speak. Many with attention deficit disorders, some with problems with aggression, and many with low self-esteem brought about by continued failure, bullying and "unsatisfactory homelife" (to quote the Breakfast Club). Of course I'm not a pychologist, but since my school doesn't have a psychologist and Japanes teachers rarely take a psych class much less an education class I'm sure I'm one of the most qualified in my school to make these kind of judgements.

OK, I feel better now. Thanks. Mark

[omar805]

Guest of Japan
That's a difficult situation that's you're in. Are you getting any support from other teachers or anyone in the school?
How are you actually coping with this situation?

[zakiah25]

Mark (Guest of Japan)
Yes, I have been in situations such as yours many times. I've had some success (and Dr J isn't that far off the mark) by talking to the students individually or in small groups. From this, I found out their interests and made up a list - racing cars, football/soccer, and surprisingly, they are just interested in stories (it's part of Arabic culture, it's the way Arabs passed on news for centuries without any technological communications). So, I would go into the classroom armed to the teeth with pictures, videos, newspaper or magazine articles (with the latest news of David Beckham or Michael Schumacher) - I've even told them back their own stories (1001 Arabian nights). Eventually, I got them to the stage where they would ask for the latest story or news as soon as I walked into the classroom.
But I would always reply, "Sure, I have some new stories or a video about Manchester United for you today, but first, we have a deal. I have some important things to teach you in the lesson this morning and if we get through it then we'll go on to the stories or the video".
It worked - they would put their heads down and want to get through the Grammar lessons or the like and more importantly, they would behave and apply themselves to these lessons.
I've used this approach with primary/secondary students and even first year tertiary students (and even with classes of up to 48 students).
best of luck, Mark - you are in a difficult situation.
Zakiah

[Steiner]

For students who like to spend the whole class period talking in Chinese to their buddies: Most of my male students also like football/soccer, so I've begun using the yellow card/red card system. Students who are talking when they should be listening get a yellow card and then a red. It's low-confrontation, gives fair warning, and if someone does get ejected the rest of the class usually runs very smoothly.

[guest of Japan]

Sorry I dropped out of the discussion for a few days. Things got pretty busy.

Zachiah, thanks for the teaching ideas. I'll have to figure out if there is some way I can put them in practice based on my students inability to speak or understand English.

Omar, good questions. I have some support in the school, but it's very typical Japanese. "Taihen desu ne." It's hard isn't it." I sometimes have long conversations that go nowhere. This is also very typical of the Japanese. None of the English teachers want to take any risks and actually say something which could be constructive because of the potential it might not work.

On an interesting aside. I went to a welcome party for me 2 days ago. I've been there for more than 2 months. None of the English teachers attended. Before the party got big some of the history teachers ripped apart the entire English department for being terrible teachers. I felt a little vindicated by the remark.

How am I coping? Japan has some very delicious beer which I very much enjoy after returning to the sanity of home. Fundamentally it's a good job. I have freedom to design the curriculum, teach in nearly any manner I want as long as it is in line with oral communication, and I get paid to play sports with the kids in the afternoon. I'd rather go home, but they are paying me, so it's not so bad. My coworkers are all nice people. I don't have any petty office politics around me. There is certainly a very rigid Japanese heirarchy around me, but as I'm an American, they are very lenient with me and more than happy if I make a respectful gesture here and there. If I survive this experience, I don't thing there will be any classroom environment I can't handle.

Thanks everyone. Mark

[guest of Japan]

I thought I'd try to bring this thread back to life as I'm still having a very tough go of things.

I had some success in simplifying the content and structuring the class in a way which provides ample review of past lessons. However some students are truly resistant to learning and common decency. I7m currently fuming over a disagreement with the Japanese English teacher I taught with today. The class was total chaos. I blame her for doing virtually nothing to maintain order, while she blames my lesson structure as being the cause or the problem. "It needs to be more fun." I didn't express any of my unhappiness about the quality of her teaching, and am thusly flabbergasted that she had the audacity to critique me. I will freely admit that my lesson wasn't great and that they never are. The problem is that I can't seem to make anything work for everybody. I've been researching teaching approaches lately and I can't find suitable ideas to deal with my situation.

I've only got two months left, but I'd like to get through them as best I can. If my horse is already dead please let me know to discontinue beating it.