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| Do you speak a second language? |
| Yes, but not the language of the country I'm in now. |
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27% |
[ 15 ] |
| Yes, and it's the language of the country I'm in now. |
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24% |
[ 13 ] |
| Not really - but I can get by here with what I know. |
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9% |
[ 5 ] |
| No, but I want to learn one. |
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0% |
[ 0 ] |
| No, and I have no desire to learn another language. |
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0% |
[ 0 ] |
| Are you kidding? I'm still learning English. |
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0% |
[ 0 ] |
| Actually, I speak more than two languages. So there. |
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38% |
[ 21 ] |
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| Total Votes : 54 |
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arioch36
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 3589
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 Posted: Tue May 06, 2008 1:40 am Post subject: |
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Fortunately Slat didn't ask if we were bilingual or fluent. I certainly wouldn't call myself bilingual, but at home we use Chinese (I am married to a CHinese  )
Vinpinman
(where does that name come from)
| Quote: |
| The biggest myth in our profession, bigger even than the one that states that having instructions in coursebooks written in English is a good idea, is that you really don't need to speak the language of your learners |
Tw recent threads. I think most agreed that you can successfully teach without knowing the language, but it limits you in many ways. Not just the idea that you don't really understand what the student goes through, but also, knowing the local culture, and the influence the culture has on the english learning can really help you help the student adjust to the situation. Don't think I said that well.
As I said in another thread, when it comes to instructions, I definitely will insure the clarity of the instruction by restating it in Chinese. I am teaching a writing class, and one thing I have found, if the students are allowed freedom, they will just copy and plagarize. ( My students are low-medium level for a Chinese college. The instructions must really format what the student will write. Their current concept is that they must discuss a current social problem in China, addressing how a "concept" such s "education", or "loyalty" (guanxi) helps or exacerbates the problem. They must discuss the past of the problem, how the past has affected the present, and what can be done in the present to affect the future.
Some believe in "English only", won't say they are wrong. But at this point, I think instructions in English, clarified using Chinese, made it possible to explain the assignment in 20 minutes (I provided examples) instead of 2 hours.
Learning also should be fun!
Oh, reading Chinese, you will see that their theory of writing is not always the same as the Western style. |
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Jetgirly
Joined: 17 Jul 2004
Posts: 741
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| Posted: Tue May 06, 2008 5:11 am Post subject: |
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I was fluent in French... until I moved to Italy. Then, I was conversational in Italian... until I moved to Mexico. If I stayed somewhere longer I am sure I could get at least one of the languages sorted out in my head, but right now it's all just a crappy, useless mix. Actually, I understand pretty much everything I hear and read in all three languages... I just can't speak or write. Alas. In high school I studied Japanese for one semester, and I can still "read" hiragana and katakana, although I have no idea what I'm reading.
I am thinking of moving back to Italy, but this time I am going to study my butt off before I go so that my brain is on the same page as my eyes, ears and mouth when I arrive. |
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Jetgirly
Joined: 17 Jul 2004
Posts: 741
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| Posted: Tue May 06, 2008 5:31 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| The biggest myth in our profession, bigger even than the one that states that having instructions in coursebooks written in English is a good idea, is that you really don't need to speak the language of your learners |
Last time I taught ESL in a public school in Canada, I had students from China, Japan, Korea, Uzbekistan, Pakistan and Bulgaria in one class. Are you suggesting that I need to learn to speak Mandarin, Japanese, Korean, Uzbek, Farsi and Bulgarian? In Italy I took government-sponsored Italian lessons with students from Lativa, Lithuania, Kenya, Uganda, China and France (the girls from Africa were illiterate to boot). The lessons had to be conducted in Italian because we didn't share a common language. Would it have been easier if our teacher had spoken English half the time? For me, yes. For everyone else, fat chance. The reality is that many, many, many English classes are not taught to a group of students who do not share a common language, and learning still occurs. Especially when the teacher is trained to teach multilingual groups of students! |
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Girl Scout
Joined: 13 Jan 2005
Posts: 525
Location: Inbetween worlds
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 12:10 am Post subject: |
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| Most of my language skills I would call functional. |
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JZer
Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3898
Location: Pittsburgh
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 12:38 am Post subject: |
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| I can speak German and am functional in Korea. Currently I am learning Mandarin and will study Mandarin everyday at Taiwanese Normal University for the next two years. |
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JZer
Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3898
Location: Pittsburgh
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 12:41 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
The biggest myth in our profession, bigger even than the one that states that having instructions in coursebooks written in English is a good idea, is that you really don't need to speak the language of your learners. |
You learned English only being taught in the target language, so why do you feel that others cannot learn English only being taught in the target language? |
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Marcoregano
Joined: 19 May 2003
Posts: 872
Location: Hong Kong
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 1:47 am Post subject: |
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| Total agreement with Jetgirly and JZer. It is patently obvious that you don't need to speak the language of the learners, so long as they are not absolute beginners - in which case it'd certainly help. However I'd say that it does help HUGELY to have at least attempted to learn another language (any language), so as to appreciate the general difficulties involved. |
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sweeney66
Joined: 26 Mar 2008
Posts: 147
Location: "home"
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 2:16 am Post subject: |
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I learned Spanish here in Mexico entirely in L2, and thought it was great. In my English classes, I enforce "English only" with exceptions. If a student plain doesn't understand an instruction,after two or three tries, I say it in Spanish. They can ask, "How do you say (Spanish word or phrase) in English?" And when I have a group of reluctant speakers, I give them a little talk in Spanish, and when I finish ask, "How many errors did I make?" (Usually 2 or 3) and "But did you understand the idea?" (Yes, of course) I could get along without those tools if I had to, but I think it shows my students that I'm not a hypocrite. (You should work hard to learn a foreign language, but not me).
Totally agree that a language teacher should be a language learner. I chose to come here instead of Asia because I really couldn't imagine being happy living in a foreign country without speaking enough of the language to have an interesting conversation, and I'm not an especially talented learner, and had no prior experience.
But don't we become teachers because we are interested in learning, anyway? |
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Stephen Jones
Joined: 21 Feb 2003
Posts: 4124
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 8:01 am Post subject: |
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| It is patently obvious that you don't need to speak the language of the learners, so long as they are not absolute beginners - in which case it'd certainly help |
Quite the opposite. It is with absolute beginnners that translation is quite unnecessary; everything can be done via mime and pictures. It is with advanced students the problems arise. Often a quick translation saves ten minutes of tortuous explanation. |
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Marcoregano
Joined: 19 May 2003
Posts: 872
Location: Hong Kong
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 9:39 am Post subject: |
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| Stephen Jones wrote: |
| everything can be done via mime and pictures. |
Well yes, and pigs can fly, but...this is getting away from the main point I and others above have made, which is that it isn't necessary to speak your students language, but it helps to be, or have been, a second language learner.
However, I stand by my post above - if you are dealing with absolute beginners it really helps to speak something of their language - using pics and mime would be very arduous and often practically unfeasible. As for advanced learners, I have found knowledge of their language generally unnecessary, though doubtless it would help on occasions. |
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arioch36
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 3589
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 10:31 am Post subject: |
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Marcus Oregano
| Quote: |
| In my English classes, I enforce "English only" with exceptions. If a student plain doesn't understand an instruction,after two or three tries, I say it in Spanish. They can ask, "How do you say (Spanish word or phrase) in English?" And when I have a group of reluctant speakers, I give them a little talk in Spanish, and when I finish ask |
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Pretty much whee I am at.
I would be interested hearing more debate on what to do with beginners.
If it is young children, not my specialty, I do remember pictures (and giving the kids lots of stickers and telling every parent their child was best) being very helpful. Most of the textbooks were geared this way. My best kiddieclasses, were ones such as I mime bunny rabbit, cat, dog, hop, crawl, chase, run, tired, hungry, and have the children play act. Tires out the children, effective, makes child parent and child happy.
Adult beginning learner textbook aren't geared to picture learning, rightly or wrongly (adults do learn differently) And I guess it is a deficiency with me, I can't see play acting like that with older beginning students. For fear of their ridicule? Or understanding it wouldn't work as well, or the school would think I am crazy?
Adult beginners ... anyone use pictures and crayons? |
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veroax
Joined: 31 Jan 2007
Posts: 57
Location: Bogot�, Colombia
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 2:50 pm Post subject: |
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| JZer wrote: |
| Quote: |
The biggest myth in our profession, bigger even than the one that states that having instructions in coursebooks written in English is a good idea, is that you really don't need to speak the language of your learners. |
You learned English only being taught in the target language, so why do you feel that others cannot learn English only being taught in the target language? |
I don't think that you can draw too many comparisons between learning your L1 as a child and learning subsequent languages later in life. It's just not the same process, and the brain isn't doing the same thing.
My feeling is that the EFL teacher should most definitely be learning the language of their host country. At least some effort. And cautious use of the student's L1 in the classroom (on a very limited basis, only when the benefits outweigh the negatives) is acceptable.
Regarding the comments on classes in Canada where the student body is diverse... I think this is one of the biggest differences between EFL and ESL classrooms, which are slightly different animals. In the EFL classroom, students typically have a common linguistic and cultural background. In the ESL classroom, students are generally more diverse. These two different contexts of language learning require some differences in approach. |
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JZer
Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3898
Location: Pittsburgh
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 2:58 pm Post subject: |
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I don't think that you can draw too many comparisons between learning your L1 as a child and learning subsequent languages later in life. It's just not the same process, and the brain isn't doing the same thing. |
But if you are teaching children like is done in some parts of the world (Asia) then it is somewhat similar. Not exactly because they have L1 interference but they can still learn from a natural process. |
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JZer
Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3898
Location: Pittsburgh
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 3:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Quite the opposite. It is with absolute beginnners that translation is quite unnecessary; everything can be done via mime and pictures. It is with advanced students the problems arise. Often a quick translation saves ten minutes of tortuous explanation. |
Sometimes translation is a necessary in teaching adults. In some cases due to required university, high school, or business courses you have students that really need to learn phonics and reading but are suppose to learn to communicate. In some jobs students don't have the comprehension ability to understand a native speaker understand a grammar aspect that they need to learn to pass freshmen English. I have seen this in Korean universities and expect that it goes on in many universities that have an undergraduate English requirement. I think some business classes are the same. |
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veroax
Joined: 31 Jan 2007
Posts: 57
Location: Bogot�, Colombia
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 3:08 pm Post subject: |
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I agree with that to an extent. I'm coming from the university level here. I imagine that, if working with children, I would feel a bit differently. But I still think there's a pretty big difference between learning a language because you need to communicate with your mother, and learning a subsequent languange in the classroom. (Is that why we say "mother tongue"  ) |
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