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johnslat · Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 3:33 am Post subject: Enduring Love

GENERATION FAITHFUL
Young Saudis, Vexed and Entranced by Love�s Rules

By MICHAEL SLACKMAN
Published: May 12, 2008
RIYADH, Saudi Arabia � Nader al-Mutairi stiffened his shoulders, clenched his fists and said, �Let�s do our mission.� Then the young man stepped into the cool, empty lobby of a dental clinic, intent on getting the phone number of one of the young women working as a receptionist.
Asking a woman for her number can cause a young man anxiety anywhere. But in Saudi Arabia, getting caught with an unrelated woman can mean arrest, a possible flogging and dishonor, the worst penalty of all in a society where preserving a family�s reputation depends on faithful adherence to a strict code of separation between the sexes.

Above all, Nader feared that his cousin Enad al-Mutairi would find out that he was breaking the rules. Nader is engaged to Enad�s 17-year-old sister, Sarah. �Please don�t talk to Enad about this,� he said. �He will kill me.�

The sun was already low in the sky as Nader entered the clinic. Almost instantly, his resolve faded. His shoulders drooped, his hands unclenched and his voice began to quiver. �I am not lucky today; let�s leave,� he said.

It was a flash of rebellion, almost instantly quelled. In the West, youth is typically a time to challenge authority. But what stood out in dozens of interviews with young men and women here was how completely they have accepted the religious and cultural demands of the Muslim world�s most conservative society.
They may chafe against the rules, even at times try to evade them, but they can be merciless in their condemnation of those who flout them too brazenly. And they are committed to perpetuating the rules with their own children.
That suggests that Saudi Arabia�s strict interpretation of Islam, largely uncontested at home by the next generation and spread abroad by Saudi money in a time of religious revival, will increasingly shape how Muslims around the world will live their faith. Young men like Nader and Enad are taught that they are the guardians of the family�s reputation, expected to shield their female relatives from shame and avoid dishonoring their families by their own behavior. It is a classic example of how the Saudis have melded their faith with their desert tribal traditions."

For 3 1/2 more pages, please click on this link:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/12/world/middleeast/12saudi.html?partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

lall · Joined: 30 Dec 2006 Posts: 358

The language used in the article is a tad tacky. Rather surprising, considering that it is the NY Times.
Further, Nader's fear about Enad knowing about the "asking-the-pretty-receptionist-for-her-phone-number" caper seems hard to understand, considering that Enad's and his photographs are splashed all over the web page.

veiledsentiments · Joined: 20 Feb 2003 Posts: 17644 Location: USA

Cleopatra · Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 4:14 pm Post subject:

johnslat · Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 4:33 pm Post subject:

Dear Cleopatra,

"Watch this thread get deleted any second now."

Waiting . . . waiting . . . waiting . . .

OK, that's all the time I can spare. I have to go to watch the grass grow now.

Regards,
John

scot47 · Joined: 10 Jan 2003 Posts: 15343

john
when you are done you can come and help me watch this paint drying.

Cleopatra · Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 5:12 pm Post subject:

veiledsentiments · Joined: 20 Feb 2003 Posts: 17644 Location: USA

Is it? I guess you would say "when you are finished" ?

Never knew that they were any different... Laughing

VS

scot47 · Joined: 10 Jan 2003 Posts: 15343

I am a secret USAnophile.

lall · Joined: 30 Dec 2006 Posts: 358

007 · Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 5:56 pm Post subject:

Well, Nader and Enad do not represent the majority of young people in the magic kingdom!
Also, if you want a woman's perspective, I recommend you read the article of Abeer Mishkhas entitled �Love Conquers�, in which she provides a deep insight and a whole different angle of the topic.
http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/abeer_mishkhas/2008/02/love_conquers_all.html

Cleopatra · Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 6:07 pm Post subject:

I am always intensely irritated when my students tell me "Miss, I'm done". I ask them if they are chickens revolving on a barbeque spit, and they soon learn to use the proper English term, which is of course "I've finished".

And don't even get me started on the ridiculous habit of referring to your male and female colleagues, in a professional environment, as "You guys". Do some people live in a Beverly Hills 901 fantasy? And, no, I have never watched it.

ghost · Joined: 30 Jan 2003 Posts: 1693 Location: Saudi Arabia

In Korea, Koreans had trouble understanding Americans say things like 'I'm good' when asked if they wanted supplemental food or drink. The Koreans would always ask - 'what do you mean, you're good?'

There are many terms and language uses that rarely get mentioned in class, and even advanced language students in Korea had trouble with some of those americanisms.

Ghost

veiledsentiments · Joined: 20 Feb 2003 Posts: 17644 Location: USA

According to my dictionary, the first definition of the word "done" is

1. Having been carried out or accomplished; finished

So, apparently there at least 300 million Americans who don't share your opinion, Cleo... and actually you are misinforming your students by telling them that they can only use definition

2. Cooked adequately

One thing I always tried to avoid when teaching English was to enforce my personal dialect on my students. Where American and British English differ, I always accepted both as correct.

We have enough frustrations in life without trying to enforce our own idiolect on the world.

"guys" is a different situation... that is slang...

VS

johnslat · Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 11:47 pm Post subject: Guys and Dolls

OK guys, it's a done deal.

Regards,
John

P.S. I think I'd regard it more as "informal" or "colloquial" rather than "slang." It's been around for quite a while:

guy: "fellow," 1847, originally Amer.Eng.; earlier (1836) "grotesquely or poorly dressed person," originally (1806) "effigy of Guy Fawkes," leader of the Gunpowder Plot to blow up British king and Parliament (Nov. 5, 1605), paraded through the streets by children on the anniversary of the conspiracy. The male proper name is from Fr., related to It. Guido, lit. "leader," of Gmc. origin (see guide).