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General grammar teaching ideas wanted
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MO39



Joined: 28 Jan 2004
Posts: 1970
Location: El ombligo de la Rep�blica Mexicana

PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2008 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a two MAs - does that make me a two-time mistress?
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johnslat



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2008 5:49 pm    Post subject: A Case in Point Reply with quote

Dear MO39,

I would think that any mistress under the definition below was automatically a "two-timer."

"A mistress is a man's long term female sexual partner and companion who is not married to him, especially used when the man is married to another woman."
Regards,
John
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MO39



Joined: 28 Jan 2004
Posts: 1970
Location: El ombligo de la Rep�blica Mexicana

PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2008 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It looks like I've never really been a "mistress" after all, unless certain men in my past life were not totally honest with me!
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johnslat



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2008 6:30 pm    Post subject: Case Law Reply with quote

Dear MO39,
And, as we all know, men, especially in "cases" (hey, I'm trying to maintain a tenuous thread to the spin-off from the original topic) involving romance can always be assumed to be "totally honest."
Regards,
John


Last edited by johnslat on Sun May 11, 2008 7:05 pm; edited 1 time in total
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MO39



Joined: 28 Jan 2004
Posts: 1970
Location: El ombligo de la Rep�blica Mexicana

PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2008 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And here, in the land of the charming Mexican macho male, that goes double!
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johnslat



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2008 7:06 pm    Post subject: Double or nothing Reply with quote

Dear MO39,
Or, I suppose you could say it goes "two times."
Regards,
John

You might try

bastardo de la doble-travesi'a


Last edited by johnslat on Sun May 11, 2008 9:40 pm; edited 1 time in total
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MO39



Joined: 28 Jan 2004
Posts: 1970
Location: El ombligo de la Rep�blica Mexicana

PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2008 8:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now I've got to figure out how to say two-timing b****rd in Spanish!
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fat_chris



Joined: 10 Sep 2003
Posts: 3198
Location: Beijing

PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2008 7:47 am    Post subject: Re: I am the master of my fate; I am the captain of my soul Reply with quote

johnslat wrote:
Dear MO39,
Well - I DO have a Master's. Which recalls what I used to say to my Saudi students who kept calling me Dr. John.


After all, THIS is the real Dr. John.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dr._John

Another Internet website reference.

Master John, I've stolen your posting closing:

Regards,
fat_chris
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arioch36



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 3589

PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2008 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As always John, a master of research, with wit, and most miraculous of all ... common sense (something I saw little of in my time in grad school)

But back to the thread Shocked ahem!

Gaijin

Is that Japanese? I find it remarkable that many of your (students') common mistakes are the same as my students. I can theorize fairly well how their native language factors into these problems.
How to fix the mistakes. I can honestly say I believe, after my seven years, that the solution lies in their oral english practice (and to a lesser extent, lack of good novels to read).
grad school has been a while. Dancer, "mentation", some good pronciples in my Comunications BS and (unfinished) MA.
Oral english practice has a partner that will listen to your mistakes (hopefully). Writing makes it easier to use new words, but also, as most students never ask a classmate to proofread, mistakes are repeated forever and never noticed.
Good oral english makes responses automated. The proper response is repeated so often that "conscious" thought is not needed, which is the desired condition.
Bad oral english practice, where students are allowed to speak lazy english, creates an automated response that is wrong that is very very difficult to correct in writing english. I will mention such basic mistakes (he run/ he runsit, but not focus my time on these mistakes as it seems a waste of writing time.
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gaijinalways



Joined: 29 Nov 2005
Posts: 2279

PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2008 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was covering the same material with some other students orally today, but I would have to wait until we review it to see if that would help or not. Yes, been here in Japan going on 11 years this August, but still trying to get students not to 'yakudoku' is difficult.

Quote:
The proper response is repeated so often that "conscious" thought is not needed, which is the desired condition.


Hmm, maybe I didn't repeat some Japanese phrases enough times. Not sure how many reptitions you're thinking of, with 90 minutes a week, unless these guys do tape homework as well, they're probably not going to learn that much in one year, never mind a semester.


Last edited by gaijinalways on Mon May 12, 2008 9:09 pm; edited 1 time in total
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arioch36



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 3589

PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2008 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Not sure how many reptitions you're thinking of, with 90 minutes a week, unless these guys do tape homework as well, they're probably not going to learn that much in one year, never mind a semester.


I don't think in terms of repetition, though that is what it is. tape homework is more repitition. A lot depends on how much they correct each other when they are talking to each other. I think my goal is for 40 minutes of paired/group talking. I just go around checking to make sure they always use complete sentences without these basic mistakes. These basic mistakes can usually be picked up by the student they are talking to.

If they are freshman, results are usually quick. If they are grade three juniors with three years of practiced bad oral english (oh as long as they talk it is okay Sad ), positive results are difficult to see quickly

My experience at least. With juniors, having the same students for writing and oral, movie and oral, or movie and writing all have produced good results in their ability to formualte an idea and defend the idea, but those ingrained bad habits are hard to break
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Justin Trullinger



Joined: 28 Jan 2005
Posts: 3110
Location: Seoul, South Korea and Myanmar for a bit

PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2008 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
'There is/there are in English are used to tell that somebody or something exists in a certain location'.
I take it as the locative case.


This may be the secret to where the (small, friendly) argument lies. The fact that something indicates location does not, in itself, make it locative, nor, necessarily, a "case." English isn't generally labled with "case," though I could make a case for using it in some cases...oh, never mind.

I am a teacher with only around a decade's experience, but I'm wrong all the time. Some days I don't do anything but get things wrong. I doubt very much that this tendency will go away completely within 15 years. Even with 25 years experience, I could visualize getting things wrong occasionally.

Quote:
"Well, I do have a Master's degree, so why not call me "Master?"


Funnily enough, in Ecuador, where we have a certain preocupation with titles, it happens. As MAs don't usually, in the English speaking world, confer a title, it sounds funny to us. But here, people use any titles they have- and if they have the title in English teaching or something related, they try to use them in English.

I know an English department head at a local school who insists that everyone call him "Master Rodriguez," and nobody realises it's ridiculous, as in Spanish he would be perfectly entitled to "Magister Rodriguez."

A (sort of) translator working locally has an MSc in Linguistics, and had his cards printed according to an English title he'd seen used and wrongly assumed to be equivalent.

His cards say "Ms Pablo Garcia."


Smile
Justin
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TheLongWayHome



Joined: 07 Jun 2006
Posts: 1016
Location: San Luis Piojosi

PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2008 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gaijinalways wrote:
So what kinds of things do you do to get students to try and stop translating?

I don't mind if they translate, as long as they are translating the concept and not just churning out hack translations from their L1. There is a huge difference.

I'm not really into the 'everything in English tefling' concept, in fact I think it's the slowest way to learn a language. What seems to speed up their learning is making them aware of the grammar of their own language. They don't (here in Mexico at least) really like hearing it from a foreigner but once they see the results they kind of like it. I think this is more likely due to having been brainwashed with the everything in English/learn from a native speaker bull.

Have them translate 5 sentences from their L1 into English. I guarantee you'll be horrified.
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gaijinalways



Joined: 29 Nov 2005
Posts: 2279

PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2008 9:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I don't mind if they translate, as long as they are translating the concept and not just churning out hack translations from their L1. There is a huge difference.


Yes, if they are translating to get the gist or intended meaning of the original sentence or phrase, that is fine, but too often 'direct translations', what the yakudoku method somewhat employs, ends up with another language.

The Yakudoku method, first used with translating Chinese sentences into Japanese, works like this. First a student translates the sentence word by word into Japanese. Then, a rewriting process is employed to try and change the structure into a proper Japanese sentence structure. Finally, a ' polishing' stage is employed to get the new Japanese sentence into a better sounding Japanese. The problem with this process is that you end up with sentences that are not good translations, and de facto become 'new' languages, something half Chinese, half Japanese.

Quote:
A lot depends on how much they correct each other when they are talking to each other. I think my goal is for 40 minutes of paired/group talking. I just go around checking to make sure they always use complete sentences without these basic mistakes. These basic mistakes can usually be picked up by the student they are talking to.


It might depend on their major, as the majority of my students have major problems with doing self/peer corrections, even with writing where they have more time to find the errors, no pun intended.

Quote:
My experience at least. With juniors, having the same students for writing and oral, movie and oral, or movie and writing all have produced good results in their ability to formulate an idea and defend the idea, but those ingrained bad habits are hard to break


Yes, fossilized errors are difficult to eliminate and/or reduce. Even when subconsciously a speaker or writer realizes something is wrong with a sentence, he or she can not always find the error as it has become 'too familiar' in some cases.
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rusmeister



Joined: 15 Jun 2006
Posts: 867
Location: Russia

PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2008 2:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A lot of stuff I'd like to comment on here when I get the time.

My little addition - you CAN teach grammar, even to native speakers. Your success or lack thereof really depends on how you go about it.

With non NS, what I do that works quite well is to teach them the rule for a given concept - and whether the context is family life or work or play makes no difference at all - and when they follow the general rule, I begin making the mistakes myself (I call it playing the "stupid" teacher). If they can't catch the mistake, then I didn't teach something right. I go back to square one and make sure I've covered the missing bases. For instance, with articles (ah, the bugbear of ESL teachers!) I cover the cases when they are not used, and then the general rules for when they are (rather than what most textbooks offer - mind-bogglingly long lists of rules that are impossible to memorize). When (with countables) they get that "a/an" means "one of many" and "the" means "the one that..." their success rate generally climbs over 80%. Then we start marching through the list of rules and scratch out the ones that are covered by the general principles, leaving a much smaller list of exceptions! Smile
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