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Why are the Japanese poor at English?
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Glenski

Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN

Posted: Sun May 25, 2008 8:17 am Post subject:

JZer wrote:

Quote:

But I noticed. Lazy students? Yup.

Glenski, while maybe the students are lazy I don't think it is fair for any professor to peg students as lazy for not wanting to study for a certain class. If something is not seen as relative who would study.

Sorry, JZer, but the kids are given the chance to miss 20% (that's one-FIFTH, if it sounds better that way) of their classes. To me, that's a lot. To cheat and have someone else sign in for you is disrespectful and lazy. The kids' parents pay for the class, yeah, but in the final analysis, it is the kid who chose the course. They have 3 weeks (that's 3 chances) to hear the rules and learn what the course is like before settling on registering or not. Pretty fair, so cheating on attendance is UNfair and lazy to me.

Maybe I'll do what some other teachers do, and use the electronic card reader on their I.D.'s. I hate to do that, though, because it takes away the chance for me to learn their names.

Quote:

If one looks at the levels of English in Japan you can see that one can be successful without speaking a word of English. So why would everyone want to study hard?

I'm not talking about the LEVEL of study. I just described showing up! Students at my school have an option of choosing 3 language courses in their 4 years. I don't consider that studying hard. Plus, those courses can be in any of 3 languages offered. Pretty lax requirements.

What did you mean by the first statement, though. Successful?

arioch wrote:

Quote:

It would seem strange that the Japanese government would place such an emphasis on English if they didn't feel it was important.

Lip service, IMO. They clearly don't know what the heck they want or how to get it.

spiral78

Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 11534
Location: On a Short Leash

Posted: Sun May 25, 2008 8:58 am Post subject:

I notice that the OP hasn't contributed since the original post - possibly too busy. This question has engendered a really useful discussion, though - I would be very happy with these responses if this had been my question.

JZer

Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3898
Location: Pittsburgh

Posted: Sun May 25, 2008 9:34 am Post subject:

Quote:

What is the difference if they have 3 languages or 10 languages to study from? The point is not that they have choices, the point is whether studying a foreign language is really necessary. Many of them will be speaking Japanese 99 to 100 percent of the time for the rest of their lives. Whether they choose French, Chinese , English, etc. That doesn't make the class relevant to them or give them a reason to study hard.

gaijinalways

Joined: 29 Nov 2005
Posts: 2279

Posted: Sun May 25, 2008 2:18 pm Post subject:

That still doesn't excuse not showing up (and lieing about it) and then expecting to pass. But then again, I was one of those who complained loudest when my university went to a mandatory % of grade attendence policy Cool

.

If you want the credits, you need to meet the minimum criteria set out by the school/teacher.

Quote:

I agree, but that reasoning applies for many of us, but I still think swearing in other languages is fun Razz

JZer

Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3898
Location: Pittsburgh

Posted: Sun May 25, 2008 5:20 pm Post subject:

Quote:

That still doesn't excuse not showing up (and lieing about it) and then expecting to pass.

I don't promote lying but can someone tell me what alternative this students have?

JZer

Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3898
Location: Pittsburgh

Posted: Sun May 25, 2008 5:23 pm Post subject:

Quote:

The kids' parents pay for the class, yeah, but in the final analysis, it is the kid who chose the course.

Not really. You stated that your students must study a foreign language. You stated that they must take 3 language courses to graduate. How are they choosing? Yes they might get to choose what language but for someone that sees no necessity in learning a foreign language one or 100 choices is probably irrelevant.

JZer

Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3898
Location: Pittsburgh

Posted: Sun May 25, 2008 5:28 pm Post subject:

Quote:

Is English important? That simply isn't the Japanese or Chinese students' choice.

Yes, what you have to learn is not always your choice. That is a fact of life but don't expect everyone to study hard if the school and or country cannot demonstrate to people why the subject is relevant or useful.

Glenski

Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN

Posted: Mon May 26, 2008 12:36 am Post subject:

JZer wrote:

Sorry, but I gotta agree with gaijinalways in stating that your argument above is not the point at all. The point is, they lied about attending. I have discovered that they do this in other classes, too. According to a Japanese teacher (not of English, BTW), the students are more interested in getting a high score, not in learning.

Besides, the students chose my course (or any course, for that matter). Showing up for 80% of the classes is a pretty lenient expectation. Learn to lie early in life, and it will only bite you in the buttocks later. Policies about attendance are a small fraction of moral education, and I tend to agree with such.

Oh, and as for not using a foreign language later in life, I will nix that right here and now. All of the students at my university are science majors, and English is the lingua franca of science. They will have to use it later in their careers. To me, the pitiful thing is, students take so few English courses. They take what is needed to meet the basic minimum, then move on. Only later (2 years at least, when they are 3rd year students, and their advisors have them trying to read journals in English and preparing for job interviews a year away) do they learn how important English is to them, but by then it is almost too late. For most, it is too late.

JZer wrote:

Quote:

I don't promote lying but can someone tell me what alternative this students have?

Alternative to what? Attend the class! If you can't pass, that's your problem. Should have studied. The only alternative I see is to take the easiest possible classes (and they do) and pass with a bare minimum of 60%. Still painful for some, but that's not the point, either. Science majors need English, and the sooner they realize that, the sooner they realize they should be working harder to learn it.

Quote:

You stated that they must take 3 language courses to graduate. How are they choosing?

From the horse's mouth (other students), I have learned they take a class based solely on how easy it is to pass or screw off. They learn this in the first 3 weeks of trial lessons before they must commit to register, by attending class and testing the waters and by talking to their sempai in club circles. If they take all English, that's their prerogative. If they suffer through English, German, and Spanish (basic course for each), that is also their prerogative. As long as they pass and get the credit, that seems to be their only goal in language classes. Students have told me much later in their academic careers (4th and 5th year students) that we teachers should make it harder to pass just so the kids who take the courses learn that we only pass the motivated.

JZer

Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3898
Location: Pittsburgh

Posted: Mon May 26, 2008 1:26 am Post subject:

Quote:

According to a Japanese teacher (not of English, BTW), the students are more interested in getting a high score, not in learning.

Not rocket science. You probably have just described the majority of students in the world. Even though I enjoy learning and read at least one non-fiction book a week. I can tell you that I was up most interested in getting a high score as an undergraduate.

Glenski, your are too ultraistic. Most 19 and 20 year olds have never had a job. Why in the world do you think they would be able to see the practical application of English? This is probably worse in Japan and Korean than western countries since they are less likely to have a part time job or any responsibilities outside of studying.

Glenski

Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN

Posted: Mon May 26, 2008 2:06 am Post subject:

Quote:

Most 19 and 20 year olds have never had a job. Why in the world do you think they would be able to see the practical application of English?

I make it my responsibility to show them the practical application. How about you?

Otherwise, what's the point in teaching?

arioch36

Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 3589

Posted: Mon May 26, 2008 6:51 am Post subject:

Glenski

Quote:

Quote:
Most 19 and 20 year olds have never had a job. Why in the world do you think they would be able to see the practical application of English?
I make it my responsibility to show them the practical application. How about you?

Otherwise, what's the point in teaching?

Thank you. I am not sure if JZer point is teachers should let the students do what they want, sleep, come and go when they want, etc.

They may not have jobs, but their parents do. Butyeah, I would expect a 20 yr old to have some ideas about his future. And yes, I think it is the job of the teacher and parents to teach about this. What is your alternative? No one guides the students?

here in CHina every college student must past a basic English test., Many students also take a Japanese course. The student taking Japanese, their level of Japanese after two years in college should be equal to their level of English. The kicker being that every student has studies some english for at least three years before college, and then 10 hours a week in college. The Japanese test is totally above their ability. But the school needs to show that they are meeting the standards, and the teacher must be passing the students, or the school can say that they are a bad teacher.
So about five minutes into the Japanese test the teacher looks out the window. This is the cue for all the students to open their books. Every student, I mean every single student, at my college is allowed and does indeed cheat on this test. But on their resume they can list this as basic proficiency in Japanese

Glenski

Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN

Posted: Mon May 26, 2008 1:57 pm Post subject:

arioch36 wrote:

here in CHina every college student must past a basic English test.

And, in Japan, 80% of companies require a TOEIC score at some point, whether for entry, promotion, or assignment overseas. I point this out on day one to kids. Not just "a TOEIC score", either (obviously). Certain scores won't get you a promotion, a job, or a transfer abroad.

JZer

Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3898
Location: Pittsburgh

Posted: Mon May 26, 2008 3:12 pm Post subject:

Quote:

What is your alternative? No one guides the students?

Students must learn for themselves and many do. They don't study English or another language hard until they see an immediate need.

My entire point was not about cheating but that students need to see the need to study hard or at least maybe a teacher can make a class interesting and the students can learn the material even if they see no practical need.

JZer

Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3898
Location: Pittsburgh

Posted: Mon May 26, 2008 3:18 pm Post subject:

Quote:

Glenski, thanks for proving my point inadvertently.

Quote:

I make it my responsibility to show them the practical application. How about you?

Otherwise, what's the point in teaching?

It seems that showing your students the practical application does not work for most students. Maybe this is why direct correction does not working for learning languages.

It seems that people may learn things inadvertently and on their own. Just standing on a pedestal and tell kids you need to learn English because of x,y,z does not seem so effective.

And Your Bird Can Sing

Joined: 26 May 2008
Posts: 62
Location: Hong Kong

Posted: Tue May 27, 2008 10:26 am Post subject:

jwbhomer wrote:

Chinese is a tonal language (or language group); English and Japanese are not.
Chinese has no verb tenses.
Chinese has no gender in third person pronouns.
Chinese has no articles.

How much more dissimilar can you get?

This is too simplistic and absolute. English too has elements of tonal languages (e.g., rising and falling tones of tag questions and echoic questions such as 'You went to Spain on holiday?'); many English verbs have no tense (e.g., 'put', 'bet', 'burst', etc.); English too can avoid gender in third person pronouns either because you do not know the gender or because you want to be PC and non-sexist (e.g., 'After the unidentified person entered the empty room they sat down'); and in English too articles can be elided (e.g. in newspaper headlines, 'Man walks on moon' and with culturally significant and enduring institutions (e.g., 'I go to church every Sunday' or 'I go to school everyday').

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