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best students in the world?
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Justin Trullinger

Joined: 28 Jan 2005
Posts: 3110
Location: Seoul, South Korea and Myanmar for a bit

Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 2:35 pm Post subject:

Quote:

spanish energetic, but maybe too boisterous?

Why Yes! ahem, in the movies.

The Spanish are about as diverse as everybody in Europe these days. While they're at it, they're about as overworked. There aren't too many generalizations that apply to a whole culture...

Best,
Justin

wulfrun

Joined: 12 May 2008
Posts: 167

Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 2:49 pm Post subject:

Justin Trullinger wrote:

Quote:

spanish energetic, but maybe too boisterous?

again, this stuff is evident - i'll be doing a summer course in britain in a month, and the spaniards will be doing more singing/loud talking/laughing than the germans/russians/japanese. at least, that's how it was last summer, and that's what my colleagues who've taught in spain and other countries expect.

yes, we're limited to comparative generalisations - we can only say that spanish students are generally more loud than other french/chinese/students, and we can't even say that the majority of spaniards , of course. but there's something here.

cultural generalisations do have some truth - americans are generally more relaxed about discussing sex, japanese are generally more polite, swedes are generally more liberal.

maybe a problem is that these generalisations can be pernicious, and self-perpetuating. but that's another question.

EverReady

Joined: 19 May 2005
Posts: 48
Location: Nobody Cares

Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 4:29 pm Post subject:

naturegirl321 wrote:

You can't stereotype, there are good and bad students in every country.

This is true, you need to judge each and everyone individually, consider their strong and weak traits, and come to an informed conclusion about....

Bah, this takes to much time. More outlandish stereotypes about them east asians and arabs please.

Justin Trullinger

Joined: 28 Jan 2005
Posts: 3110
Location: Seoul, South Korea and Myanmar for a bit

Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 5:24 pm Post subject:

Quote:

cultural generalisations do have some truth - americans are generally more relaxed about discussing sex, japanese are generally more polite, swedes are generally more liberal.

Obviously, there can be some truth to cultural generalizations- But I've got problems with some of yours. More ________ than what? Without a basis for comparison, they're probably not very useful, are they?

Secondly- I'm from Iowa. It would have NEVER occurred to me to say that Americans were in any way relaxed about discussing sex. Compared to anybody.

Best,
justin

wulfrun

Joined: 12 May 2008
Posts: 167

Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 2:22 am Post subject:

Justin Trullinger wrote:

Quote:

cultural generalisations do have some truth - americans are generally more relaxed about discussing sex, japanese are generally more polite, swedes are generally more liberal.

you got me on the americans, definitely: some slack needs to be built in for distinct sub-groups - a white briton like myself will generally feel more relaxed about discussing religion than a pakistani briton. but still, my point stands: take ten random american students, and ten random chinese students - a discussion abuot sex will likely go down better in class with the americans than with the chinese. (probably go down even better with a class of dutch - i just happened to be thinking about my five american colleagues, in contrast with the chinese teachers around me at the moment.)

"more _____ than what?" - more _____ than the average. this is pretty clear conceptual stuff. if i have a class of three japanese, three russians, three spaniards, three swedes, and three moroccans, the japanese are likely to be quieter. it's backed up with hard studies. the same way we can make a generalisation abuot swedes being generally relatively tall, we can make a generalisation about japanese being generally relatively quiet in an english class.

sensing some hostility in this thread; im not really one to get antsy over the internet, so let's just leave it if it's causing animosity.

wulfrun

Joined: 12 May 2008
Posts: 167

Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 2:25 am Post subject:

EverReady wrote:

More outlandish stereotypes about them east asians and arabs please.

seriously, has there even been one inaccurate statement about east asians in this thread?

Justin Trullinger

Joined: 28 Jan 2005
Posts: 3110
Location: Seoul, South Korea and Myanmar for a bit

Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 2:15 pm Post subject:

Hi again-

No animosity here, rather enjoying this- I like to argue for it's own sake, and I think you'll find that to be a common characteristic of posters here.

Quote:

take ten random american students, and ten random chinese students - a discussion abuot sex will likely go down better in class with the americans than with the chinese.

Having never taught anyone Chinese, I can't really challenge this- simply don't know. But I'd argue that regions vary a LOT, and that you'd be hard pressed to find ten people truly representative of either the US (a large country) or of China (an incredibly, ridiculously large country.)

I'm from the "bible belt" in the US, and while I have no reason to believe that the Chinese are more open to discussing sex than my compatriots, I have a hard time imagining what it would be like to be less so.

I'm still going to say that "More X than the average" is a fairly meaningless, albeit clear, statement, unless you have some way to demonstrate what the average might be. As it applies to something as ephemeral as willingness to talk openly about a given topic, I'm sure that your experience of average will be different than mine, as our experiences are quite different. And neither of us has been around enough to venture even a guess at what a world average might look like.

Quote:

the spaniards will be doing more singing/loud talking/laughing

Interesting comments on regions in this as well- Spanish students in your classes are mostly from central and southern Spain, are they not? Without wanting to stereotype overmuch, I've spent a LOT of time in northern Spain, and travelled the rest fairly thoroughly. Your Spaniards sound very Andaluz to me!

BEst,
Justin

Justin Trullinger

Joined: 28 Jan 2005
Posts: 3110
Location: Seoul, South Korea and Myanmar for a bit

Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 2:29 pm Post subject:

Quote:

seriously, has there even been one inaccurate statement about east asians in this thread?

I believe the bit about serious, polite, and respectful, or whatever it was, from the beginning of this thread, is what people may have taken issue with.

I haven't spent time in Asia, so can only comment on my experiences with Asian students abroad, and the comments I've heard from others. But a glance at the Korea board seems to indicate that politeness is far from general.

My experience is that one or a few Chinese students in a mixed group tend towards shyness, which may come across as polite. On the other hand, a large group of Chinese students would tend towards boisterousness, and is certainly loud.

Best,
justin

rusmeister

Joined: 15 Jun 2006
Posts: 867
Location: Russia

Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 3:44 pm Post subject:

sweeney66 wrote:

Mexican high school students are legendarily a nightmare, but Mexican uni students are a dream. What happens to them in that one summer?

I don't know, but I can back up the high schooler comment. The Mexican teens I taught in CA had been ripped away from all that they knew in Mexico, so the unwillingness of some to learn was understandable. I sure wonder whatever became of the kids that I struggled to raise from zero English and general =3rd grade edu level to literate young people with a chance to survive in an environment where those who don't succeed get careers at Classic Car Wash (TM).

Russians are VERY interested, but good luck getting adults to do homework!

MO39

Joined: 28 Jan 2004
Posts: 1970
Location: El ombligo de la Rep�blica Mexicana

Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 4:12 pm Post subject:

rusmeister wrote:

Russians are VERY interested, but good luck getting adults to do homework!

An ancedote about Russian students. I've only taught Russians in the US, immigrants living in Philadelphia back in the 1980s. As I remember, they were some of my best prepared students with lots of cultural sophistication, recent high school graduates and adults. Though this wasn't true of all of them (this is for Justin), as a group they did have a reputation for rampant cheating.

I well remember one Igor, a fortyish former geography teacher in the Soviet Union, who was attempting to cheat on a final exam by copying an essay he had previously prepared at home. When I caught him, his exam was confiscated and he was banished from the classroom! After he left, fuming and undoubtedly murmuring curses in Russian under his breath, one of the older female students thanked me for what I had done. She told me that the Russian students were well aware of the reputation they had for cheating and that she was glad one of her countrymen had been caught in the act. Perhaps she thought it would give the other students pause before trying such a stunt again, at least in my class. By the way, there was no way the Russians could accuse me being anti-Russian since I have a very Russian last name.

wulfrun

Joined: 12 May 2008
Posts: 167

Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 4:17 pm Post subject:

Justin Trullinger wrote:

Hi again-

No animosity here, rather enjoying this- I like to argue for it's own sake, and I think you'll find that to be a common characteristic of posters here.

Quote:

take ten random american students, and ten random chinese students - a discussion abuot sex will likely go down better in class with the americans than with the chinese.

Quote:

the spaniards will be doing more singing/loud talking/laughing

ok, thanks for the reply.

i've taught about 1,000 chinese, about 800 from hebei and beijing, 200 from all around the country; 30 japanese, mostly from kyoto; 40 spaniards, half from around valencia and half from somewhere else in spain; 20 swedes from various places in sweden; 15 russians - don't know where from; and 2 or 3 students from each of 21 other countries. comparing these groups to each other on national lines: the chinese were obedient, reserved on certain topics, innocent, nationalistic, and less likely to challenge accepted wisdom; the japanese were even quieter than the chinese; the spaniards were louder and more gregarious; the swedes were more polite, liberal, and thoughtful.

maybe these small groups were misleading - that's the whole point of the thread. im just looking for quick summations of posters' experience, comparisons between the groups they have experience with. if you still think there's some basic fallacy here, i guess we have to agree to disagree.

MO39

Joined: 28 Jan 2004
Posts: 1970
Location: El ombligo de la Rep�blica Mexicana

Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 4:18 pm Post subject:

rusmeister wrote:

sweeney66 wrote:

Mexican high school students are legendarily a nightmare, but Mexican uni students are a dream. What happens to them in that one summer?

I think that the Mexican high school students sweeney66 mentions are from a very different socio-economic background than the ones rumeister worked with in the US. The patterns of misbehavior in the classroom of these two disparate groups must stem from very different causes, so I don't think we can lump them together for the purposes of this discussion.

wulfrun

Joined: 12 May 2008
Posts: 167

Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 4:21 pm Post subject:

Justin Trullinger wrote:

My experience is that one or a few Chinese students in a mixed group tend towards shyness, which may come across as polite. On the other hand, a large group of Chinese students would tend towards boisterousness, and is certainly loud.

soapdodger

Joined: 19 Apr 2007
Posts: 203

Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 6:53 pm Post subject:

The best students, regardless of nationality, are the ones who pay for a course and never come and business students who cancel in under 24 hours. I love them. I have one business group I have never met yet, but they keep me in smoked salmon. Darlings!

Henry_Cowell

Joined: 27 May 2005
Posts: 3352
Location: Berkeley

Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 9:03 pm Post subject:

wulfrun wrote:

... but still, my point stands.... this is pretty clear conceptual stuff.... it's backed up with hard studies....

let's just leave it if it's causing animosity.

I think that any "animosity" you perceive in others' responses is probably generated by the way you've phrased your remarks so emphatically and certainly. You don't cite any of those "hard studies" to back up what are only your own fairly limited and anecdotal experiences. Others are -- like you -- simply citing their own experiences. Cool

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