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vikuk
Joined: 23 May 2007
Posts: 1842
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 Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 1:19 am Post subject: |
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| to recognize the law of supply and demand. |
I think its more important to fully understand that law. The theory of supply and demand concerns a product that doesn't go through the act of bargaining its own price. Potatoes don't have the ability to sit up on supermarket shelves and call out to consumers they are worth more money - they don't refuse to be cooked because they feel they are being eaten on the cheap 
The very notion of the supply and demand theory playing a major role in determining FT wages is rather knocked on the head by the fact that there is so much variation in FT salaries. So why so many low salaries - after all the other idea that there are hordes of unemployed FT's hanging around just waiting to accept the first vacant position also seems a bit of a myth. Maybe they have more to do with FT's being duped into accepting them by employers who say they cant afford to pay anymore  |
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melilly
Joined: 21 May 2008
Posts: 44
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| Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 3:29 am Post subject: |
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When I first saw the title of this discussion I thought it would be about students not doing their homework, and about teachers giving each other ideas and advice on how to deal with students who fall into this category.
Instead, it turned out to be a complaint, an insulting "rant" about teachers who aren't "legitimate".
Excuse me?
MOD EDIT
Teachers should be supporting each other, not putting each other down.
WE ARE ALL EQUAL HERE. |
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And Your Bird Can Sing
Joined: 26 May 2008
Posts: 62
Location: Hong Kong
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| Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 3:34 am Post subject: |
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| Well, you keep advising people to read Animal Farm so I guess you know that although everyone is equal, some are more equal than others. |
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vikuk
Joined: 23 May 2007
Posts: 1842
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| Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 5:28 am Post subject: |
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| Personally, I've done reasonably well for myself and sometimes consider semi-retirement in China. I don't need a particularly high salary but would be willing to settle for other types of compensation (nice apartment, etc.). As a result, I find the idea that I should "demand a higher salary in order to look out for the other poor teachers, man" pretty funny. |
If the supply and demand theory of hordes of new wannabe teachers who are ready to take on China EFL jobs at very low wage levels are true - then those employers will surely further cut costs by taking advantage of the situation and offer us less.
Nice apartments for single teachers - well those might soon be a perk that added to the scrap heap. Some companies already only offer shared accommodation. Regardless of other FT's - I think any teacher who has an interest in merely pereserving standards in this business owes it to themselves to negotiate the highest offer. After all if you become a victim of other teachers accepting the lowest on offer - then others might start laughing |
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melilly
Joined: 21 May 2008
Posts: 44
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| Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 5:28 am Post subject: |
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Oh my gosh, have you even read the novel by George Orwell?
If you knew the story you'd know pompous your comment is.
The story is about pigs who rise to power and start writing laws so they can have all the power and privilidges in an idealistic society where the original commandments state that "all animals are created equal."
Later, the pigs in power change the law and write, "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others."
This means, as all of my writing on this thread suggests, that some teachers here think they're better or above certain others because of the rules and laws they make up in their twisted little minds.
Good grief, the utter ignorance of some people never ceases to astound me. |
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mike w
Joined: 26 May 2004
Posts: 1071
Location: Beijing building site
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| Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 5:51 am Post subject: |
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| Good grief, the utter ignorance of some people never ceases to astound me. |
This from the person who cannot differentiate between teaching being just a 'job' to some people, and being a 'profession' to others'!!
Please notice that I talk about "teaching" - not limited to only ESL.
This does not mean that I look down on those teachers without teaching qualifications. I have known some excellent unqualified teachers, and some appalling qualified teachers.
It means that I consider teaching to be a profession (career), not just another job. |
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And Your Bird Can Sing
Joined: 26 May 2008
Posts: 62
Location: Hong Kong
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| Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 6:12 am Post subject: |
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| Actually, as regards the pigs, I think one of the major themes of Animal Farm (viz., the inherent irony and intrinsic contradictory nature of the situation) has gone right over your head. After all, Blair took great pains to emphasise that the pigs are the most intelligent of all the various creatures and thus are the best qualified to run the farm, and they are the strongest and bravest warriors � indeed, there would have been no Animal Farm without them: the farm (in the animal-run sense) owes its very existence to the pigs. Thus it seems that, arguably, one of Blair's points was to show how, in fact, somewhat ironically, what was needed (one could argue) was not more communism (or any other branch of totalitarian control) but rather more 'public-spirited' pigs. |
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melilly
Joined: 21 May 2008
Posts: 44
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| Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 7:42 am Post subject: |
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Such reasoning is exactly what Orwell was writing against. What an arrogant, delusional way to view the world. And to think in at least one twisted little mind someone actually thinks it's cool to be one of the pigs!
Here are the main themes of the story, not mine, taken from Answers.com:
In Animal Farm, his allegory of the Soviet Revolution, Orwell examines the use of language and the subversion of the meaning of words by showing how the powerful manipulate words for their own benefit.
In Animal Farm, Orwell comments on those who corrupt the idea of human rights by showing how the animals deal with the issue of equality.
In Animal Farm the animals begin by proclaiming the equality of all animals. The classless society soon becomes divided as preferential treatment is given to the pigs.
In the novel, the animals are often forced to examine the meaning of truth in their society. Again and again, truth becomes simply what Snowball, and later Squealer, tells them.
If you share the OP's "truth" here, that so-called "legitimate" teachers are superior, so be it.
Orwell teaches us that this kind of mentality is very bad from the human soul.
WE ARE ALL EQUAL HERE.
Unless, of course, you're a pig! |
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And Your Bird Can Sing
Joined: 26 May 2008
Posts: 62
Location: Hong Kong
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| Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 7:57 am Post subject: |
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| Funnily enough, if you had read Bernard Crick's 'George Orwell: A Life' (1980, Penguin, p.458) then you would know that the "one twisted little mind" you refer to belonged to none other than T.S. Eliot. |
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arioch36
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 3589
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| Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 10:07 am Post subject: |
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Melilly claims she can't stand people using denigrating terms about others, yet her/is posts are full of such terms, calling others pompous, snobbish, ignorant, hypocritical. (I have probably missed some)
And to think I offended you by saying that IN MY OPINION you were trolling for saying something like
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| If their native language is English and they're not stoned out of their minds, they can stand in front of a class and get the job done |
.Oops! pardon me for having seen this just ain't true, and for thinking our standards could be a little higher. Snobbish ignorant hypocritical me  I am wrong, you obviously really do believe that this is what makes a teacher
I guess I should think of a more appropriate word for your choice of reply words. What word might be good?
Melilly
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| The OP was looking down his nose and putting people down. Why would anyone want to support this kind of haughty mentality |
Indeed. 
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| I would never accuse or degrade another poster |
Uh, okay 
Yes, I guess some people do feel they are more equal then others. |
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shuize
Joined: 04 Sep 2004
Posts: 1270
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| Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 2:14 pm Post subject: |
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| vikuk wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Personally, I've done reasonably well for myself and sometimes consider semi-retirement in China. I don't need a particularly high salary but would be willing to settle for other types of compensation (nice apartment, etc.). As a result, I find the idea that I should "demand a higher salary in order to look out for the other poor teachers, man" pretty funny. |
If the supply and demand theory of hordes of new wannabe teachers who are ready to take on China EFL jobs at very low wage levels are true - then those employers will surely further cut costs by taking advantage of the situation and offer us less.
Nice apartments for single teachers - well those might soon be a perk that added to the scrap heap. Some companies already only offer shared accommodation. Regardless of other FT's - I think any teacher who has an interest in merely pereserving standards in this business owes it to themselves to negotiate the highest offer. After all if you become a victim of other teachers accepting the lowest on offer - then others might start laughing |
I seem to recall going around on this issue with vikuk before. I'll try to summarize what I said in previous posts:
I may go to China for semi-retirement down the road. I may not. I hope to be in the position to call the shots before too long. That means if I can negotiate a position which suits me, I'll do it. If nice apartments for single teachers are not an option, I may negotiate something else. Or not. I'm not locked in to going. I certainly don't have any plans of becoming a "victim."
On the other hand, I don't feel any responsibility about trying to get the highest salary to try and "protect" other teachers either. If I end up with a low salary, feel free to laugh as much as you like. At this point in my life hours per week and quality of life issues rank much higher than salary. If I was aiming for a high salary, I wouldn't pick China in the first place. Like everyone else, however, I'll negotiate to satisfy my own personal needs. If that helps out some other teachers in the process, great. If it does not, tough shit. No matter what people say on internet chat boards, everyone knows that's how it really works in practice. |
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vikuk
Joined: 23 May 2007
Posts: 1842
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| Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 3:32 pm Post subject: |
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| I certainly don't have any plans of becoming a "victim." |
Because there are so many positions that offer so little - you can't help being a victim.
And how are you that victim - well having to look and negotiate so much harder for that ideal job, which indeed may not exist, not being able to find a job where there are long-term assurances with regard to employment conditions and always having to wonder if another FT, who also views professional solidarity as some kind of joke, fancies the same position and just takes it from you by undercutting your wage - certainly doesn't make you look like much of a winner |
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melilly
Joined: 21 May 2008
Posts: 44
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| Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 4:28 pm Post subject: |
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| I am wrong, you obviously really do believe that this is what makes a teacher |
Again, putting words into my mouth. That seems to be your forte.
The OP is fair game, actually, as the OP started a discussion about newbies and escapees that was derogatory in nature, and he was rather smug and superior about it.
His attitude was, "I'm not you, I'm better than you, I'm above you, you're stupid, I'm not, I'm legitimate, you're not."
I didn't start this discussion. I haven't singled out any posters by name here, and while my language has been strong and opinionated, I've always tried to come back to my main point, which again, is about teachers who start to believe they are "more equal" than others.
Sure, I've made some mistakes here, and thrown out some abusive reply words of my own towards a few posters in general, but never by name. Sometimes, a person has to fight fire with fire. Still, I'd rather be a hypocrite than a snob any day.
You don't know anything about me or what I believe.
WE ARE ALL EQUAL HERE
SOME PIGS STILL INSIST THEY ARE MORE EQUAL THAN OTHERS
Why don't you STOP telling everyone what I believe and start telling us what you believe?
Please feel free to ask your good friends Mr. "Legitimate" and Sir "High Standards" for help. |
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arioch36
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 3589
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| Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 5:47 pm Post subject: |
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Mellily, I prefer to put your words in your mouth
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Arioch
Quote:
I am wrong, you obviously really do believe that this is what makes a teacher
Melilly
Again, putting words into my mouth. That seems to be your forte |
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No Melilly, I am putting your words in your mouth
You make multiple complaints about people here making disparaging remarks, and then you make plenty of your own. And you see, to show others I am not putting words, every word I claimed you used to put someone else down is a word that you used on this thread
Melilly
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| while my language has been strong and opinionated |
Interesting, when it's you, you label it "
, and when it is someone else you lable it
among other words (taken directly from your mouth)
So much for your first major complaint about the poster.
Yes some do appear to feel they are more equal then others
Melilly
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| You don't know anything about me or what I believe |
.
Quite right, words straight from your mouth
And as such I can only rely on what you claim to believe on this thread, hence my love affair with the quote button
Melilly
| Quote: |
Quote: (Arioch)
I am wrong, you obviously really do believe that this is what makes a teacher
(Melilly)
Again, putting words into my mouth. That seems to be your forte |
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Well let's look at the whole context. Wouldn't want to lose the context. keep things honest, you know
I quote Melilly
Melilly
Quote:
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| If their native language is English and they're not stoned out of their minds, they can stand in front of a class and get the job done |
First you call it a job. Your words. Then you claim teaching isn't a job, isn't a business. Hmm, flip-flop experience? You also worked at Wendy's
Melilly rightly quotes me
(Arioch)
Quote:
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| I am wrong, you obviously really do believe that this is what makes a teacher |
Melilly
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| Again, putting words into my mouth. That seems to be your forte. |
Maybe others can fault my logic.
The job .... the job you are referring to is the teaching job
Well Melilly, am I putting words in your mouth yet?
And you say only three things are needed to do this job successfully (which job is Melilly talking about .. the teaching job)
Melilly says if a person is a native speaker, is not stoned, and is able to stand in front of the class (so we might want to add, isn't stone drunk, but Melilly didn't say that) then he is an acceptable teacher in the eyes of Melilly, he can do the job (which Melilly says later isn't a job or business)
So don't worry Melilly, I will continue putting your words in your mouth, I won't put anyone elses words in your mouth, to the best of my ability
Melilly
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| Still, I'd rather be a hypocrite than a snob any day |
.
Well, it is good to recognize your strengths. But I think you are underestimating your self. |
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arioch36
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 3589
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| Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 5:50 pm Post subject: |
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PS, I clearly said what I believe, and you are welcome to put my words in mouth at will.
I said my opinion before someone started their rant and personal attacks |
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