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lafouine
Joined: 14 Jun 2008
Posts: 3
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 Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 10:29 pm Post subject: China spouse visa and work |
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Hi,
I am moving to China (September 2008) to take up a teaching job in Shanghai. Got all the paper work going and everything should go smoothly.
However, my wife has not yet looked for a job there (teaching). My new school is getting the visa paper work done. My question: Will she be able to look for work when she arrives in China? is it possible to avoid flying back to the US just to pick up a letter? especially as she will already have a visa?
Anybody in the same situation out there? any info appreciated!!  |
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lafouine
Joined: 14 Jun 2008
Posts: 3
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| Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 7:25 pm Post subject: |
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Bump up
Honestly, who's been in the same situation, what did they sort out? |
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North China Laowei
Joined: 08 Apr 2008
Posts: 419
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| Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 2:18 am Post subject: It All Depends |
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Your wife is not automatically covered under your residence permit. Your school needs to take steps to cover her under your residence permit. This is possible and it can be accomplished. If your wife is going to look for work at an institution OTHER than the one where you are employed, I hate to say it but she will be required to have a separate Z visa and then residence permit, medical exam, and the like. I hope that she has a university degree, has two years of demonstrated teaching experience on her resume, etc., etc.
When your school applies for permission to hire you, they must -- absolutely must -- make mention of and include a "spouse" on the paperwork. You are well-advised to bring marriage certificates, etc., etc., and all supporting documentation. The PSB can be quite, quite difficult these days.
If your school has done their "homework" so to speak, and you are issued a Z visa, then your wife should be issued a corresponding visa as a spouse but not necessarily a visa that entitles her to seek employment at a place of employment other than your school. You need to clearly understand that. If she comes here on your visa, and then works somewhere else, and the PSB get wind of it, it could jeopardize your visa, her visa for sure and it will decidedly piss off your school unless they give you a signed "consent" in writing.
Next, she will be required to undergo all of the same steps upon arrival that you do. Should she not pass the medical, then the Z visa will be lifted and she will be given 10 days to leave the country.
Additionally, some provinces have taken to giving interviews to spouses, with all the requisite documentation that I mentioned, and if your spouse is summoned for an interview, then you should sit up straight so to speak and take notice because that is a clear indication that all is not well with the PSB.
Finally, if you are a citizen of one country, and your wife a citizen of another (excluding all of the countries that are in the EU), then that will render things even more difficult. Should your wife be an ABC, or a CBA, etc., etc., then you will be in for a very rough ride these days until after the Olympic period.
I know of at least four fives in Guangzhou whose spousal visas were refused upon arrival and they were given ten days to leave the country.
Remember -- a spousal visa is just that -- a visa for your wife to accompany you. It is not a work entitlement under the current situation by any means. |
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Joe C.
Joined: 08 May 2003
Posts: 993
Location: Witness Protection Program
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| Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 3:27 pm Post subject: Re: It All Depends |
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| North China Laowei wrote: |
... If your wife is going to look for work at an institution OTHER than the one where you are employed, I hate to say it but she will be required to have a separate Z visa and then residence permit, medical exam, and the like. ...
... If your school has done their "homework" so to speak, and you are issued a Z visa, then your wife should be issued a corresponding visa as a spouse but not necessarily a visa that entitles her to seek employment at a place of employment other than your school. You need to clearly understand that. If she comes here on your visa, and then works somewhere else, and the PSB get wind of it, it could jeopardize your visa, her visa for sure and it will decidedly piss off your school unless they give you a signed "consent" in writing. ... |
Not sure what you are talking about, but the accompanying spouse of a person on a work permit / work-related residence permit is not authorized to work, period. This includes at the school which employers her husband or any other potential employer.
The residence permit clearly states in Chinese characters the purpose for which the residence permit was issued. To the spouse who is employed, it clearly indicates "work" and to the trailing spouse it clearly states "accompanying family." The accompanying family member cannot work unless they process a change in status and get their own independent work permit / residence permit.
Your comments are going to mislead the OP if they rely on them as being true.
And you are painting a rather bleak picture of spouses getting turned down after PSB interviews. This is also very misleading since the vast majority have no problems at all. In fact, your claim to personally know of 5 that were rejected smells like a fairy tale.
Last edited by Joe C. on Mon Jun 30, 2008 12:52 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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lafouine
Joined: 14 Jun 2008
Posts: 3
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| Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 12:16 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for the information!
However, I kinda already knew my wife was not entitled to work  My question is rather will it be possible for her to look for a job and find one! AND hopefully not have to fly back to the US for a few days to get her own Visa/work permit done (tickets are quite expensive)! Are there any other ways to get a work permit while in China (for a US citizen)?
For those of you living in Shanghai...Is it possible to contact language schools/have interviews/etc...and then eventually fly to the US get the paper work done done then fly back in? Anybody done it?! |
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arioch36
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 3589
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| Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 12:31 pm Post subject: |
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Joe C.
| Quote: |
| The accompanying family member cannot work unless they process a change instatus and get their own independent work permit / residence permit. |
Well, not work legally. And no, I am not advocating working illegally. But many spouses do. This I have seen to be quite common. As we know, 90% of the laowais who have extra part time work are doing it illegally (again, not advocating, simply saying what usually is
My first question is why your school doesn't hire her. If she is at all qualified, most schools love to hire teaching couples. Two for the price of one, two for the headaches of one.
But from all the posting done here, it seems unlikely that she could get a work visa without flying to the states.
Have the school apply for her invitation letter! |
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Joe C.
Joined: 08 May 2003
Posts: 993
Location: Witness Protection Program
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| Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 12:55 pm Post subject: |
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| lafouine wrote: |
Thanks for the information!
However, I kinda already knew my wife was not entitled to work My question is rather will it be possible for her to look for a job and find one! AND hopefully not have to fly back to the US for a few days to get her own Visa/work permit done (tickets are quite expensive)! Are there any other ways to get a work permit while in China (for a US citizen)?
For those of you living in Shanghai...Is it possible to contact language schools/have interviews/etc...and then eventually fly to the US get the paper work done done then fly back in? Anybody done it?! |
Sure, it is totally possible for her to look for a job and probably find one. However, nobody can guarantee that she will; it depends on her skills and the job market.
Under normal circumstances, she wouldn't have to return to the US and I believe that even now that holds true. With the Olympics upon us, though, things have taken a turn for the surreal. I'm not sure what would happen now. |
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Joe C.
Joined: 08 May 2003
Posts: 993
Location: Witness Protection Program
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| Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 12:57 pm Post subject: |
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| arioch36 wrote: |
Joe C.
| Quote: |
| The accompanying family member cannot work unless they process a change instatus and get their own independent work permit / residence permit. |
Well, not work legally. And no, I am not advocating working illegally. But many spouses do. This I have seen to be quite common. As we know, 90% of the laowais who have extra part time work are doing it illegally (again, not advocating, simply saying what usually is |
I totally agree with you. Although not legal, a heck of a lot of teachers are working illegally and the vast majority get away with it. But it would be totally irresponsible to say that it were legal. |
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North China Laowei
Joined: 08 Apr 2008
Posts: 419
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| Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 5:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Joe C. wrote: |
| lafouine wrote: |
Thanks for the information!
However, I kinda already knew my wife was not entitled to work My question is rather will it be possible for her to look for a job and find one! AND hopefully not have to fly back to the US for a few days to get her own Visa/work permit done (tickets are quite expensive)! Are there any other ways to get a work permit while in China (for a US citizen)?
For those of you living in Shanghai...Is it possible to contact language schools/have interviews/etc...and then eventually fly to the US get the paper work done done then fly back in? Anybody done it?! |
Sure, it is totally possible for her to look for a job and probably find one. However, nobody can guarantee that she will; it depends on her skills and the job market.
Under normal circumstances, she wouldn't have to return to the US and I believe that even now that holds true. With the Olympics upon us, though, things have taken a turn for the surreal. I'm not sure what would happen now. |
This is incorrect. With the exception of one province in Northern China and with the added exception of one major city again in Northern China, at least until October 17, 2008, conversion in situ are not being done. Arioch has pointed out one approach to which I alluded previously. Should she work "off-the-books", then no paperwork would be involved. However, there is a risk factor for you with this, as I mentioned in a previous post, and should your employer decide not to turn a "blind eye", several things could happen, based upon my experience. I was at one university where this happened with a spouse and the university FAO very benignly requested a 30% cut of what the spouse was making, of course, under implied duress. They paid him. At another university where I was, it was a matter of "don't tell, we won't ask". There was however, very recently, another employer that simply terminated a husband because the spouse was working, and he had been warned to ask her to stop and it didn't.
Now, to answer your question very simply, contrary to what a previous poster has implied, as I mentioned, with the exception of Shanghai and Jiangsu, if your wife finds employment, she will have to exit the country to change her visa. The question remains as to exactly where. A previous poster has mentioned that Hong Kong is still open. My own information from government sources here is that it is not.
Next, I would also like to respond to a previous poster who questioned my statement about spouses being denied visas. So let me lay it out clearly :
1. In Guangzhou, a United States citizen married to a Pakistani lady, both of whom had been in Guangzhou legally for a period of time, applied for renewal of his resident permit and her spouse resident permit. His came back with no problems. She, on the other hand, had a passport with a nice little red stamp called a "10 Day Exit Visa", She has returned to Islamabad from where her papers will be processed but dates are not certain.
2. Second case, Shanghai, a United States citizen married to a French citizen, EU passport, parallels the case above. Same outcome as above. She has returned to Marseille for further processing.
3. An Australian of Indian origin married to an Indian citizen, parallels number one above and this also occurred in Southern China -- in Fujian. He has pulled a runner from his previous school so he had to exit the country and do the Hong Kong Z visa thing (this was in April when the rules were just starting to change). She was completely refused in Hong Kong and had to return home to Mumbai to await processing. Not even a 10-day exit visa.
4. Case No. An American citizen married to a charming lady from Manila. They had been in Shenyang and moved to a city in southern China. The school processed the papers timely and duly. He received his resident permit and she was invited to return to Manila to wait for her papers.
5. An English couple working in Shenzhen, of a certain age, not young any more but still within the legally employable limits. She chose not to work "officially" but worked on the side, so to speak. They were on "F" visas until the "F" visas ran out in April. The training center was and still is legally able to hire foreign teachers. It processed their papers, Z visa for him, spousal visa for her. They were dispatched to Hong Kong for the visa thing (early May). Both were refused and invited to return home to London for processing, which they did, and where they both secured a visa.
So, to answer the questions of a previous poster, these are the deadlines.
I do not advise caution generally but at the present time and at least until October, 2008, I would urge caution.
NCL |
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Joe C.
Joined: 08 May 2003
Posts: 993
Location: Witness Protection Program
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| Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 1:00 am Post subject: |
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| North China Laowei wrote: |
| Joe C. wrote: |
| lafouine wrote: |
Thanks for the information!
However, I kinda already knew my wife was not entitled to work My question is rather will it be possible for her to look for a job and find one! AND hopefully not have to fly back to the US for a few days to get her own Visa/work permit done (tickets are quite expensive)! Are there any other ways to get a work permit while in China (for a US citizen)?
For those of you living in Shanghai...Is it possible to contact language schools/have interviews/etc...and then eventually fly to the US get the paper work done done then fly back in? Anybody done it?! |
Sure, it is totally possible for her to look for a job and probably find one. However, nobody can guarantee that she will; it depends on her skills and the job market.
Under normal circumstances, she wouldn't have to return to the US and I believe that even now that holds true. With the Olympics upon us, though, things have taken a turn for the surreal. I'm not sure what would happen now. |
This is incorrect. With the exception of one province in Northern China and with the added exception of one major city again in Northern China, at least until October 17, 2008, conversion in situ are not being done. Arioch has pointed out one approach to which I alluded previously. Should she work "off-the-books", then no paperwork would be involved. However, there is a risk factor for you with this, as I mentioned in a previous post, and should your employer decide not to turn a "blind eye", several things could happen, based upon my experience. I was at one university where this happened with a spouse and the university FAO very benignly requested a 30% cut of what the spouse was making, of course, under implied duress. They paid him. At another university where I was, it was a matter of "don't tell, we won't ask". There was however, very recently, another employer that simply terminated a husband because the spouse was working, and he had been warned to ask her to stop and it didn't.
Now, to answer your question very simply, contrary to what a previous poster has implied, as I mentioned, with the exception of Shanghai and Jiangsu, if your wife finds employment, she will have to exit the country to change her visa. The question remains as to exactly where. A previous poster has mentioned that Hong Kong is still open. My own information from government sources here is that it is not. |
96110110. This is the telephone number for the Guangdong Provincial Public Security Department's Entry & Exit Administration. They seem to believe that HFG in his new incarnation still has problems with honesty and or accuracy in describing visa issues.
A trailing spouse who later finds employment does not need a new visa in much the same way an individual who renews his work permit / residence permit does not need a new visa. All the spouse needs is an adjustment of status which is generally done in country. Citizens of certain countries may not be allowed to change their status in country, but we already know that. Prime examples would be Costa Ricans, Filipinos, Indonesians, Nigerians and Pakistanis amongst others.
As for Hong Kong, they are issuing Z visas as of late last week. For other than Z visas, it can be hit and miss unless you have a Hong Kong ID card, but as long as you are not from one of the countries mentioned above -- or one of the approximately 30 others that are listed by the Foreign Ministry as inelegible to process visas in other than their home country -- you can have a Z visa processed.
| North China Laowei wrote: |
... If your wife is going to look for work at an institution OTHER than the one where you are employed, I hate to say it but she will be required to have a separate Z visa and then residence permit, medical exam, and the like.
...
If your school has done their "homework" so to speak, and you are issued a Z visa, then your wife should be issued a corresponding visa as a spouse but not necessarily a visa that entitles her to seek employment at a place of employment other than your school. You need to clearly understand that. If she comes here on your visa, and then works somewhere else, and the PSB get wind of it, it could jeopardize your visa, her visa for sure and it will decidedly piss off your school unless they give you a signed "consent" in writing. |
There seems to be a major integrity issue here or a complete misunderstanding of the facts. A trailing spouse on a residence permit issued as such is not allowed to work, period, unless she obtains a work permit and is successful in adjusting the purpose of her residence permit to employment. It matters not whether she works at her spouse's place of employment or a different employer.
| North China Laowei wrote: |
Next, I would also like to respond to a previous poster who questioned my statement about spouses being denied visas. So let me lay it out clearly :
1. In Guangzhou, a United States citizen married to a Pakistani lady, both of whom had been in Guangzhou legally for a period of time, applied for renewal of his resident permit and her spouse resident permit. His came back with no problems. She, on the other hand, had a passport with a nice little red stamp called a "10 Day Exit Visa", She has returned to Islamabad from where her papers will be processed but dates are not certain.
2. Second case, Shanghai, a United States citizen married to a French citizen, EU passport, parallels the case above. Same outcome as above. She has returned to Marseille for further processing.
3. An Australian of Indian origin married to an Indian citizen, parallels number one above and this also occurred in Southern China -- in Fujian. He has pulled a runner from his previous school so he had to exit the country and do the Hong Kong Z visa thing (this was in April when the rules were just starting to change). She was completely refused in Hong Kong and had to return home to Mumbai to await processing. Not even a 10-day exit visa.
4. Case No. An American citizen married to a charming lady from Manila. They had been in Shenyang and moved to a city in southern China. The school processed the papers timely and duly. He received his resident permit and she was invited to return to Manila to wait for her papers.
5. An English couple working in Shenzhen, of a certain age, not young any more but still within the legally employable limits. She chose not to work "officially" but worked on the side, so to speak. They were on "F" visas until the "F" visas ran out in April. The training center was and still is legally able to hire foreign teachers. It processed their papers, Z visa for him, spousal visa for her. They were dispatched to Hong Kong for the visa thing (early May). Both were refused and invited to return home to London for processing, which they did, and where they both secured a visa. |
Aside from the fact that these examples are probably bogus, again, the vast majority of spouses have no problems.
It is interesting to see that most of the examples that HFG gives involve individuals on the list of 30+ countries whose citizens need to return home to obtain visas.
It's also relevant to note that when you bring your spouse to China it is already a given that she has already obtained a visa and needs only to have that converted into a residence permit for accompanying family members. As you would already have obtained your Z visa, you only need to convert that to a residence permit, also. You are not applying for a new visa and as long as you meet the requirements you will have few, if any problems. HFG just likes to paint a bleak picture to increase his status as a person in the know. 
There are 4 major universities and at least 5 more that are not near my home. I know almost all of the FTs at these institutions and many of them are here with their spouses. None of them have had problems and met the doomsday scenario that HFG paints. |
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