Job Discussion Forums

[GONZALVESB]

Considering all the information provided, I would like to ask you now. I would really like to leave this school, i.e. as soon as I find a 'better' opportunity without paying a penalty fee of RMB2000. Does the fact that I requested to meet with the leaders and they denied this count as not sticking to the contract? Does the fact that I signed a contract without them informing me of the Chinese Laws count in my favour? Does the fact that I don't have good living conditions, according to my standards count? Of course, the alternative is to give them three months notice, which I am considering.

I was also told to make a list of the issues that I needed to address. I have now done that but since they are so vindictive I think that I should wait until I receive my z-visa and FE before I approach them. With this list I want to inform them that I have the right now to accept any other employment.

I also agree with the fact that why should we consider the 'saving face' culture at our expense. I understand what you are saying about this but my point is, why are we allowing this to continue. Why doesn't someone start a supporting group that would assist FE's in cases like these? If there is a shortage of FEs why do these people get away with murder? Why are they allowed to treat us like this?

Sorry I can't complete this now, let us discuss this topic. I really think there is a great need. I have to run to class otherwise they deduct. Sorry about the abrupt ending.

[anigbrowl]

Yes, I did make a sweeping generalisation, but I flagged it as such, I feel. It does appear that doing things 'by the book' in China involves a lot of bureaucracy, for example moving from the country to the city or switching career.

Your point about the cultural revolution is a good one, but the examples you give I could easily imagine happening similarly in Ireland, or the UK, or the USA. Demanding a teacher be fired for being black is the least likely scenario, but sad to say we have our own share of ignorance and xenophobia here, complete with pseudo-intellectual nonsense about 'preserving our genetic stock' - a line from a letter to the main national quality newspaper, written by a teacher, I'm ashamed to say.

Argumentative motorists and students objecting to the college syllabus do not seem remarkable to me. Perhaps because Ireland is also a place that traditionally runs on connections and kickbacks (we have 3 or 4 major corruption tribunals running at any given time in recent years). Anway, I can recall recent and significant examples of both situations, in the latter case leading to the temporary closure of a technical college.

I am sure my opinions will be revised and refined frequently when I am on the ground there. I'm not even sure we are in disagreement, but maybe are just looking at things from different perspectives. Having lived in 4 countries so far and visited many others, my #1 sweeping generalisation is that people are more similar than they are different.

[yaco]

DEAR Gonzalvesb

Please read my my posts on this subject.

I agree with your sentiments wholeheartedly.

[Roger]

GON ZALESB,
sorry to disappoint you but we can't do much about the Chinese' attitude RE face! It is a national charactyeristic typical of a people thas has been isolated for too long. They haven't learnt to be sensitive to others. Until a hundred years ago, they officially clung to the doctrine that China was "the centre of the world" and all the rest of humanity was subhuman, fringe dwellers, barbarians! You can still sense certain reflexes of this nature in modern Chinese!
Look, during the reign of emperors all mortal beings had to kowtow to the emperor - if they had an opportunity of seeing him face to face. OF course, ordinary mortals were never permitted into the Forbidden City. "Barbarians" such as British ambassadors of the 18th century declined to submit to this rule - and were denied the wishes they had come for, namely to establish commericfal links between GB and China. It eventually lead to the mis-labelled "Opium War", and the Chinese to this day seem to be unable to forgive the Brits (and other "barbarians").
The 'save the CHinese face" is a puerile self-defence mechanism. Live with it! I regard it as a great step of progress that Chinese through learning the English language learn to say "Sorry!" when they bump into you.
It is high time they learn more manners - and apply them among themselvesw!
Once they have learnt to be more polite to each other we can expect a friendly fallout.

[GONZALVESB]

Hi Yaco & Roger

Yaco, I read you posting and was really agreeing with what you said about support for FEs.

Roger I understand the 'saving face' thing and I also read the posting sometime back regarding relationships between Chinese women and western men when the same issue came up and I also took it from there that the same thing applies in any situation where the Chinese have to admit that they are wrong. I am not saying we have to do something about the 'saving face' I am saying we should stop them from getting away with murder. I have some experience of working with Chinese people in SA, the one was a prof. and then I also worked with a few Chinese postgraduate students. They used to make me very angry because they are never wrong, they always know better even though I had to correct their English when writing reports or theses or when they want to have an article published. This was something I could not understand. They knew their English were poor but when I corrected something, they would ask why and after explaining to them what the correct word or way of saying it is they would still want to argue about it. I remember having a disagreement with a chinese student back in SA about apartheid and I became quite angry because he refused to understand my point and insisted on his point although he did not have much knowledge about the SA apartheid system. A few weeks later he admitted that he was wrong but could not admit that in from of the two Dutch students who was in our company at the time. They were also full of criticism about SA and now that I am experiencing China I cannot understand why they were criticising SA when China is far more backwards in many respects. I had a conversation the other day with a Chinese guy who admitted that they have been in isolation for too long and that he thinks they still are.

I agree the Chinese have a lot to learn.

I truly find their habits or manners disgusting and uncivilised. We had dinner the first evening with some leaders of the school when one of the men broke a wind loudly and when he did not excuse himself my two year old daughter said, "say pardon" but this did not mean anything to him. After being here for about a week my daughter one day starting spitting and I had to explain to her that it is not appropriate to do this and this is of great concern to me that she might think this is acceptable behaviour.

[yaco]

Dear GONZALVESB

I agree wholeheartedly with your assertion about Chinese habits , especially spitting.

During a medical examination, I had medical staff twice spit under my feet. Can you imagine this happening in a supposedly clean and hygienic place where you seek medical treatment. If this happened in most other countries the staff member would be counselled, (Visit Thailand and see how immaculate the hospitals are). My guide shrugged her shoulders indicating ' thats life'. I would hate this to happen to you, with your daughter present. The chances of spreading infection are being maximised not minimised.

Why do Chinese and some foreigners always state, 'these behaviours cannot be changed'. The Chinese Government wields enormous power over people's social and political behaviour. If they took a leaf out of Singapore's book and imposed drastic penalties for anti - social behaviour ( you see no litter on the streets) there may be an improvement in anti - social behaviours.

[anigbrowl]

I thought the comment about China believing it's at the centre of the world up to 100 years ago was interesting. But you could have said the same thing about British people, and there are still traces of that attitude. I'm not saying they're right - any kind of nationalism gets up my nose. But we're not immune from empty-headed nationalism in the west either.

I guess you'll need extra tranquilisers in October when they put their first man in space

Yaco, don't you think it would be almost impossible for a government to impose something like an anti-spitting or litter law in a country the size of China? Singapore is very compact. I have to admit that I would never go there, because the Singapore government seem like a bunch of fascists to me - they have a capitalist economy, but very few of the individual freedoms that go with it. China's human rights record is pretty dire as well (and got slated again this week by the UNHCR) but they make some amends by the fact of dragging the country out of poverty with reasonable success. Singapore has already made it to 'modernity' so I don't see what their excuse is.

I don't know what you can say about stuff like spitting in medical facilities - totally unsanitary, and a direct protest probably won't get you anywhere. Grin & bear it I guess, try to set a better example, and wait for them to realise that SARS is hurting their economy, and this doesn't help.

[Roger]

Let us beware of allowing this thread to develop into a tirade! I have lived here for many years, and I love my life but I can never bring myself to saying "I love China". I love it here simply because life has been improving enormously, although this is visible only on the material level. Spiritually, CHina is comatose!

Cleanliness and hygiene - actually, I find Chinese have a number of admirable behaviours. Take the fact that most of them wash their feet every day even when they have no chance of taking a shower!
Or the habit of eating with chopsticks - yes, I don't like to poke morsels of food in a bowl shared with others, but think what a tremendous improvement the invention of chopsticks was when it was made! Before that, people no doubt used to eat with their bare hands! Perhaps clean water being so rare in China, they don't care how clean your hands are provided you use chopsticks!
They also are quite particular with where you store meat and vegetables! They know that meat is full of germs, so they cut it on a different woodblock than vegetables! That's at least what I have been taught by some Chinese in my household!
And the fact that they only drink boiled water - remarkable!

Now, why can't they stop spitting and other disgusting habits?
Again, from their point of view it is not quite so unhygienic!
They think that mucus is full of germs (how true!), and so they have made it a national habit of clearing their throats! Unfortunately, they are doing it a number of times too many, and in places not suitable for this pastime! This goes probably hand in hand with feng shui and other cultish considerations! Ever noticed that when a passenger in a bus gets up the next person will stand for several minutes before they let themselves down on the seat?
This is because they assume the former occupier may have left some disease on the seat, so they give the germs a chance of escaping!
Or the fact that they always open doors and windows even if this means greatly inconviencing people inside a room?
Again, fresh air (as alsways fresh food) is associated with "health".

If we want to change some of these habits we must wait for the government to dictate to their people to change their behaviour!
Unfortunately, this is the only way you can bring about change on such a scale in this country! The government for instance banned honking in 1996 - it stopped in big cities virtually overnight!
Or the learn English craze: We owe our jobs to the government which has whipped the whole nation into avid learners of our language!
It is a patriotic duty for most, and they eagerly obey!