Job Discussion Forums

[sarahg]

I'm a rising senior in college with plans to teach abroad for a few years at least once I graduate (and to be a teacher, preferably an ESL teacher in an elementary school, in the US when/if I return). I am currently a psychology major/computer science minor, but due to my recent change of heart and decision to go into teaching, I've considered changing my major to education, which will mean 2-2.5 more years (so about 1 year extra -- I'd probably have another 1.5 years left as a psych major).

Will having an education degree, rather than just a psych degree, help at all in getting overseas jobs or in getting into teacher recruitment programs? I don't have any set plans yet, but what I'm considering right now is to apply to the French Teacher's Assistant program (I've heard this has become competitive, and they do want to hire future teachers), teach in Asia, perhaps Japan, independently to save some money, then go to Latin America (mostly what I want in a location is good surf and friendly people). Also, I know that I want to teach children, if at all possible, rather than adults. I've read some job listings in Japan/China and none mentioned an education degree as a requirement, but did mention that classroom experience with children was desirable (which an education degree would get me, since I'd have to student teach).

Anyone know if an education degree is an asset, or is a diploma a diploma? I may change my major regardless, because I will need the education degree to teach in America, and I don't want to be limited to overseas job options (just in case a family or health emergency causes me to delay leaving the country). However, graduating ASAP is also tempting, and if I did that, I could always teach in the peace corps for 2 years when I decided I wanted to return, and after that have access to big scholarships for education Masters programs that would get me certified.

[Glenski]

Re: Japan

Most entry level newcomers have BA degrees in anything from anthropology to zoology. The biggest chain conversation school here (NOVA) just went bankrupt last November due to shady business practices, so 5000 employees hit the streets or went home. About half were rehired by the company that took over NOVA. Market is flooded, though.

Flooded markets mean it is a buyer's realm, not yours. It would be to your advantage to have an education degree, I would think, although don't be surprised if you get rejected a fair amount simply because they hire a lot on just personality and perceived chemistry you have with them.

Entry level work means conversation school teacher, or ALT for a (lousy) dispatch agency or for the JET Programme.

You will probably have more options if you can afford to come here and set up shop in late Feb. or March. Have US$4000 in hand and don't expect a first paycheck for 2-3 months.

[denise]

If you apply to private language institutes, your degree really doesn't matter, as glenski said. From what I've seen in job ads, though, it will help you teach in elementary or high schools. (Sorry--no firsthand experience here because I wasn't an education major and I don't teach kids.)

d

[DrVanNostrand]

If your goal is to teach beyond your TEFL experience then I highly recommend you go ahead and knock out the Ed. degree right now so that it doesn't become a burden down the road.

Hell, I'd do it just to ensure a job period. The job market here in the States sucks and a general BA degree will make finding a desirable job quite challenging unless you already have something lined up after school or TEFL.

I've never taught abroad but I do teach here in the States and I'll tell you my teaching license is like a warm blanket during this nightmarish economic cycle.

Without any firsthand knowledge, I'd also assume that a license certainly wouldn't hurt with regards to finding a job abroad. In fact, I assume it would make you better qualified for more coveted, higher paying positions, such as international schools. Also, it's one extra certification that you can tout over lesser qualified candidates.

I just highly recommend that you get that license now. You can skip out on that extra year and go teach abroad without it, but once you come back you'll find yourself having to go back to school for another couple of years just to make up for what you should do now while it's still convenient.

It'll actually mean more school (and more student loan money) if you choose to wait to get your teaching license (one extra year now or two extra years later) down the road.

I can speak from experience that graduating ASAP isn't always the best route. Once I decided that I wanted to go back into education, I had to make a lot of sacrifices that ended up costing me money (a lot) in the long-run just because I made the wrong decision coming out of college. Granted, I gained a lot of real-life perspective/experience, have a true appreciation for my job, and know without a shadow of a doubt that teaching is the job for me. But still, the easier road would actually have been the extra year of school.

Moreover, it isn't all that pleasant working all day in a job that you probably don't like and then going to night school 2-3 nights a week for a full two years just to get the license that you could have gotten while you still had limited responsibilities and excuse for not working a full-time job (assuming you don't already).

Just my opinion. Best of luck to you in whatever you decide to do.

[DrVanNostrand]

Also, schools are begging for ESL teachers here in the States. You would have your choice of schools if you decided to go that route and you'd never have to worry about finding a job.

Teacher pay isn't very good, but it's great knowing that no matter the economic climate we'll always be in demand.

[naturegirl321]

Hi Sarah, you seem to have your whole life planned out. Be careful though, life throws you curve balls, I planned mine out and got stuck in Peru, But am happily married and don't regret it.

If you want to teach in schools, then a Ed degree with help. BUT you will often be asked to have two years of experience along with tthat. If you just looking at institutes, a BA is fine. As for unis, it depends on the country.

About teacher recruitment, you don't have to do that. Just try sending your CV, THere are plenty of jobs out there.

Where in Asia? Japan? China? You'll need an employer for a visa. II don't think taht you can teach there independently.

For China, it's probably the easiest place to get a job. As for classroom experience, lots of things count, tutoring, running sports clubs, volunteering etc. Main thing for mostjobs in being able to go to the country and having the desire to teach.

I recommend finidhing now, and then if you like teaching, go back and get a MA rather than change your degree nowl

PCV is another option, though you don't get mmuch money during your time of service, I've heard it's a great experience. I also wannted to do that, but decided not to.

[naturegirl321]

And if you decide to teach in the US, lots of places offer emergency certs. Meaning that they hire you WITHOUT a license and help pay for you to get it. Also, look into NJ's loophole. I have three certs of elegibiltiy. MMeaning that I cann teach ESL, Spanish and K to Grade 3.

I didn't have to study Education. You just have to have your degree, fulfill some requirements and take Praxis tests. Now if I choose to do so, I could go to NJ, teach there for a bit and then get a license that was good for life. And no extra schooling. However, like I said I'm stuck in Peru.

And if you decide to stay overseas you'll see that requiremennts are different. Here in Peru, they've decided not to accept oversea license. Meaning that people who have been here for years with US license, etc, have to get a Peruvian one, mmore schooling once again.

[DrVanNostrand]

As a psych major, should would not be considered "highly qualified" to teach anything other than maybe psychology or another related social science course in high school.

"Highly qualified" is all that matters right now. You only see emergency permits handed out in extreme situations, and it's almost always at less than desirable schools.

Math, Science, and EC positions are the hardest positions for schools to fill.

She would need at least 24 hours (I think) in Math or Science related fields, if not a degree in that related field, to take the Praxis II and become "highly qualified."

A couple years ago, I tried to land a lateral entry Social Studies position (I'm a history major), even at Title I schools (where they need the most teachers but have the toughest restrictions), and could not land a job. Not a high demand post, but still at least I had the degree. Sarah's degree is no less general than mine.

I even pursued EC positions but schools wouldn't give me the time of day because I wasn't highly qualified, and couldn't become highly qualified in a reasonable amount of time being a history major. I was offered a long-term sub position (how some schools meet teaching needs) but the pay was horrible and I wouldn't have been able to survive on my own.

Again, I highly recommend that anyone planning on teaching at any point should go ahead and knock out that license while it's easiest on them. If you have the credit hours in high demand positions then you can afford to wait it out and try to find a lateral entry or emergency permit position later on. But you'll still have 2-3 years worth of night school to become fully licensed. There's no avoiding certification. You have to do it some time or another. Might as well do it now before you enter the real world.

If nothing else, do your homework and speak with someone in your school's EDU department to educate yourself on what it means to be highly qualified and what teaching positions afford you eligibility as a psych major.

I'm no expert and don't claim to be. I'm only offering advice based on my own experience, and I can attest to you that in my state it isn't easy to land a teaching position (even at Title I schools where nobody in their right mind would want to teach) unless you have a degree in a high demand area that will allow you to become highly qualified with a passing Praxis II score.

[DrVanNostrand]

Let me finish by saying, Sarah, it's your life.

You need to do what you think is ultimately best for you and your life. Only you know what is right for you.

[SandyG20]

I vote No to getting a teaching degree. Here is why - Elementary Majors are begging for jobs. IF you want to major in high level math and/or science then teaching jobs will open up for you. Most ESL jobs require you to be bilingual - usually in Spanish. The places begging for teachers in the USA are usually places with high cost of living compared to pay - and often dangerous to live in.

If you are young you can easily get a job teaching in Asia or South America (probably not Europe) with a degree in psychology.

Look at any teachers message board and find out how many people are looking for teaching jobs and cannot find one in the states. Those are people with licenses and experience - and they cannot find a teaching job.

For experience look at volunteering or being a substitute teacher - that will give you an idea if this career is for you.

Good luck!

[DrVanNostrand]

I guess it depends on where you're looking.

I don't live in a major city and was presented with 3-4 opportunities at schools other than my own this past April/May. Two of the schools were very high performing and located in rural settings.

And I teach Social Studies!

Now if you live in a union state or pretty much anywhere in the Northeast then you may have a little trouble. But you're going to have a hell of a lot more trouble if you aren't highly qualified. At least with a teaching certificate you'll be competitive in the teaching job market.

Like anything else, if you're flexible you won't have much trouble finding work. Additionally, once you become certified you can take the Praxis II and pick up and add on license in any subject that you want.

You can't just do that with a Psych degree.

If you think it's hard for some certified teachers to find a teaching post in the States then just imagine how hard it is for applicants that aren't certified. And if it's elem. ed that you're considering then you definitely won't have a shot at a job without a teaching license.

Again, your options will always be much, much better with a teaching license. Without it you'll find yourself under-qualified here in the States and less competitive abroad when compared to other certified teachers and those with higher level quals. Doesn't mean you can't find a job abroad. That seems relatively easy in certain parts of the world. However, there's absolutely no reason to take a short-cut if you know without a shadow of a doubt that you plan to teach in the States at some point in the future.

Don't take the easy way out. It'll only make it harder for you down the road (more school, more loans, more headache). Use college to make yourself as marketable as possible. You're selling yourself short by trying to get out early with a regular BA. It's getting harder and harder to find jobs with a BA nowadays. I highly advise anyone interested in teaching in the States, plan for the future and get that teaching license. Again, you're only making it harder on yourself down the road and you'll be less marketable in the present.

[SandyG20]

I think before spending time and money - on more education - spend some time subbing to find out if you even like the career.

In my state each subject area you want to teach in requires additional college (2 to 4 years) including field experience and a full semester (unpaid and you are not allowed to work another job). I don't consider this affordable. I have heard even schools in Florida are laying off teachers! I know people looking everywhere for work and finding no teaching jobs.

I don't know where people live that are finding jobs - but lucky them.

Keep in mind it gets expensive to look for work in the USA - you have to pay for plane tickets and all that and may end up empty handed.

Again high level math and science and being bilingual gives you a choice of jobs anywhere.

[DrVanNostrand]

NT

[DrVanNostrand]

I certainly agree, Sandy, that anyone interested in teaching should spend some time sub'ing to see what life in a classroom is really like. It's not as easy as people think.

With regards to finding jobs, it kind of depends on where you're looking. Again, highly populated areas and big cities will present problems for some because there'll be no shortage of teaching applicants.

But if you aren't looking for teaching jobs in the most highly coveted areas of the country, it really shouldn't be much of an issue.

Let me re-emphasize a few points:

1. Sarah could finish college in one year with a psych degree that'll give her the inside track on no specific career field.

The alternative is changing course right now and going into education, which will take her two years.

That leaves her with two tracks, assuming she plans on getting a degree in education:

a) two more years for an EDU degree
b) three more years for a relatively worthless psych degree and an EDU degree down the road

Track A represents the easiest, cheapest, and most convenient route.

2. Theoretically, if it's difficult to find a teaching job with a teaching license, just imagine how hard it'll be without one.

3. With a teaching degree, Sarah could become highly qualified in any subject that she wants. So, if she feels that becoming highly qualified in Science will make her more marketable and make it easier for her to find a job, she'll just need to study for a month or two and pass the Praxis II.

She can't do that without a teaching license. She wouldn't be considered highly qualified.

Again, it'd be prudent to go ahead and get the teaching license now if she wants to teach in the States once she returns from teaching abroad.

Sarah can take the easy route now by finishing her psych degree and graduating in a year, but if she ever wants to teach in the States she'll be presented with a number of obstacles and more than likely it'll make for a difficult transition into the US job market and a couple of tough years taking classes at night, accruing more and more student loan debt.

[SandyG20]

Which states allow people to study a couple of months and just get licensed/certified to teach by taking a Praxis test? Not my state that is for sure - so which ones?

As for subbing - many states only require a high school diploma. The pay is very low however for subbing.

To get certified in math, science - the original poster would probably need much longer than 2 years to get licensed in most states.

El. Ed. is saturated with people seeking jobs.

I say this because the OP was interested in teaching younger students.

If it was simply a matter of taking a year or two - which is time or money - maybe go for it - but find out if it will be a job you will like - and if you can relocate to the areas that need teachers - which is expensive to do.

I know way too many people who are seeking jobs in teaching - who are highly qualified - well educated and have experience - and they cannot even get a job interview anywhere.