|
Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Students and Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Leon Purvis
Joined: 27 Feb 2006
Posts: 420
Location: Nowhere Near Beijing
|
 Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 5:43 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
| Joe C. wrote: |
| arioch36 wrote: |
| I still have not heard of an American college offering separate classes with the same credit to students who were not able to successfully complete the "regular" class's requirements. |
Although not yet systematic, it happens ... usually because the professors know that the student lacking in capacity to pass won't stay in America, but be sent home to apply their ignorance there. |
It happens to some degree in every American college and university that accepts foreign students. It is almost always limited to the first two semesters of undergraduate writing, and the curriculum isn't watered down. Rather, it is tailored to meet the special needs of EFL students. After the first or second classes, the foreign students are mainstreamed into the remainder of the requisite English classes.
EFL is a tremendous drain on university resources. For this reason, many American universities farm out the responsibilities of filling out the foreign students' needs to organizations such as ELTI (English Language Training Institute). I have had experience with ELTI on only one American campus. The organization is as secretive about its activities and its mission as is the Society of Freemasons. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
arioch36
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 3589
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 8:27 am Post subject: |
|
|
Leon
| Quote: |
| It happens to some degree in every American college and university that accepts foreign students. It is almost always limited to the first two semesters of undergraduate writing, and the curriculum isn't watered down. Rather, it is tailored to meet the special needs of EFL students. After the first or second classes, the foreign students are mainstreamed into the remainder of the requisite English classes |
No, I was referring more to the current situation in England where at many unis (not all, some still have standards) an upper level class (junior, Senior, Master) Like, Linguistics 435, is offered in two forms, one to native speakers, and a different class, same class code on the transcript, and equivalent for degree purposes, the other class is given to non-native speakers who can not attain satisfactory progress in the "regular" class |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Leon Purvis
Joined: 27 Feb 2006
Posts: 420
Location: Nowhere Near Beijing
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 11:24 am Post subject: |
|
|
Re: British Unis : Is the situation that there is a worker shortage in England, and the government expects the foreign students to apply for residency and citizenship?
If what is being said about some of the British universities is true, I can understand why so many of my Chinese students hope to attend school in England. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
arioch36
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 3589
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 1:25 pm Post subject: |
|
|
No. About 10 years ago there was a debate about this. A couple years ago I was working with a Brit PHd teacher who was at an England uni at that time. of course it disgusted her, the change in who controlled the grades, separate course , watered down courses aimed at overseas/chinese students who though they were paying for a top quality education, etc. Just a blatant effort to get more foreign students. And it worked
Percentage/proportion wise, there are far more Chinese in England than the U.S., contributing far more to the GDP (proportion wise)
1 of 5 students in the U.K. is now Chinese
1995: 8,689 UK students; 6,912 overseas students
2001: 27,985 UK students; 30,760 overseas students
2007: 34,600 UK students; 14,300 EU students; 44,225 non-EU overseas students
Source: HESA
Swansea Uni was nailed big time for having absolutely no standards other then cash for diploma .. should be able to Google it
I don't have all my sources anymore, and some no longer open. Here are some
PS. what is with these 1 year Master programs of the U.K. ???
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/education/7358528.stm
| Quote: |
Whistleblower warning on degrees
By Sean Coughlan
BBC News education reporter
Degrees are being awarded to overseas students who speak almost no English, claims a whistleblowing academic. |
The comments are also interesting, the below is typical
| Quote: |
This is certainly true at the University of Sheffield. Overseas students are made to pay enormous amounts, then often are simply ignored because they cannot communicate in English. The problem exists in all departments, but is by far the worst in the hard science and medical fields. Engineering students seem to almost exclusively be Chinese with only the most rudimentary English abilities. If the universities are going to force such high fees from overseas students, they should at least make certain the students can actually keep up with the coursework and research.
Anon, Sheffield |
At my American uni I had many Chinese friends, they all had to be able to communicate in english, and mostly could.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/4219026.stm
| Quote: |
Britain's new college and school year is upon us. And so, jetting-in from all corners of the globe are over 200,000 foreign students like Sam who have opted for a UK education - and with it, by default, British weather and British food.
And if the British government has its way, this number could quadruple to nearly 900,000 over the next 15 years - a quarter from China's growing middle class.
If this goal is realised, education would deliver more than $20bn (�11bn) annually to the UK economy - more foreign revenue than today's exports of cars, food, beverages and tobacco. |
Richard Spencer (He writes some good stuff) about "management" classes just for foreigners who can't make it in the regular management classes
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/richard_spencer/blog/2007/06/28/exporting_education
| Quote: |
| My main interest here was this: I have heard continual reports that Chinese students feel cheated by British universities, who recruit heavily, charge large amounts, but throw large numbers of Chinese and other foreign students together in management or business courses where they get little individual attention and very often find their English is too poor to make good progress. The universities know the English language tests the Chinese take here do not really equip them properly, but the would-be students do not until they arrive (and have paid the money). |
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/majornews/2185378/Degree-system-'rotten'-and-'unreliable,'-says-university-watchdog.html
Degree system 'rotten' and 'unreliable,' says university watchdog
| Quote: |
| Peter Williams, chief executive of the Quality Assurance Agency (QAA), which is responsible for standards in higher education, also warned that the influx of students from overseas was pushing standards down because they expected their fees would automatically buy them a degree |
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article4158426.ece
| Quote: |
A grotesque bidding game is undermining university standards
|
| Quote: |
| Part of the problem stems from gross underfunding. Non-EU students attract full fees, and have become a lucrative source of cash. Failing or expelling a non-EU student can have serious implications. Was this, I wonder, why at one university last year, a lecturer was criticised for neglecting to give �token credits� to failures? |
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2004/aug/01/universityfunding.highereducation
| Quote: |
| 'Degrees for sale' at UK universities� Failing students passed to keep funds flowing � Lecturers fear academic standards are slipping |
| Quote: |
| The Observer investigation has also revealed that university staff are being put under increasing pressure to pass foreign students studying for masters' degrees because the income is keeping many universities afloat. |
Swansea Uni was nailed big time for having absolutely no standards other then cash for diploma .. should be able to Google it
http://www.iht.com/articles/1994/10/11/brited.php
| Quote: |
| The Marketing of British Degrees |
Don't mean to pull an un, just some relevant articles for those who want to look further into it. Of course, the British groups still try to make money in China by selling the integrity and quality of British Education.
I don't know of a professor in my American uni who would accept a school overriding his pass/fail marks |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
louis.p
Joined: 07 Oct 2007
Posts: 107
Location: Tainan, Taiwan
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 3:13 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I took a contemporary East Asian anthropology course from one of the "founders" of Korean Studies in the US at the birthplace of Korean studies in the US. He was actually one of the students of the "godfather" so to speak. Well anyways, he has been around for a while, and understands this situation well (speaks Mandarin, Korean and Japanese fluently!). He made a joke in class one day. We were discussing South Korean conscription, and he gestured to the back of the classroom to several Korean men and said:
"some of the international students are studying here to get out of mandatory military service; their parents pay for the privilage -- it is another way of asserting status in South Korea." (something along those lines)
We all looked back and there were several males, dressed in top-of-the-line clothing, half asleep staring blankly forward. I hadn't noticed them before -- I later realized they were late for every class. But the point is, it was obvious they had no idea what the professor was lecturing on or that he was joking about them. Their presence was probably allowed due to money and perhaps large donations. (The college could change their grades without telling the professor.)
I think this example is informative in the sense that these types of students -- rich and silent -- are hard to notice without consciously seeking them out; they are a slippery bunch: from their BMW to a classroom back to their BMW; they don't hang out where other students are, and their group is always discrete. However, I have found that the vast majority of international students are hard working. I think the rich-silent type are few in number relatively speaking, at my former university at least. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
arioch36
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 3589
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 3:53 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Louis
| Quote: |
| However, I have found that the vast majority of international students are hard working. I think the rich-silent type are few in number relatively speaking, at my former university at least. |
I agree. And the harshest critics of those who don't work hard are the fellow international students. In America they are sought after in the "hard sciences" because they are willing to put in the long lab hours (sometimes too willing) International students are also critics of England's policies, especially where they are put in a course that has basically be arranged for foreidn students (we are talking about things like a M.A>. in management course) You will find their anger at this "deception" on varous blogs, or talking to them.
One of the reports is about how they don't truly realize how deficient they are at english because the "joint-venture" school they attended in CHina, and paid big bucks for, always pased them with flying colours |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
lf_aristotle69
Joined: 06 May 2006
Posts: 546
Location: HangZhou, China
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 3:05 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| arioch36 wrote: |
Richard Spencer (He writes some good stuff) about "management" classes just for foreigners who can't make it in the regular management classes
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/richard_spencer/blog/2007/06/28/exporting_education
| Quote: |
| My main interest here was this: I have heard continual reports that Chinese students feel cheated by British universities, who recruit heavily, charge large amounts, but throw large numbers of Chinese and other foreign students together in management or business courses where they get little individual attention and . The universities know the English language tests the Chinese take here do not really equip them properly, but the would-be students do not until they arrive (and have paid the money). |
|
Lots of good info arioch. Australia too has had, is continuing to have, this debate.
"they get little individual attention" - They should be used to that... that's how most of their Chinese schools and universities give them foreign teacher ESL classes... Besides, they are not used to actually having to take notes in these mass lectures and be proactive in their own learning. They also tend to try to avoid the smaller tutorial classes because they're aware (self conscious) of their low English ability. However, they generally fail to realise that communication and discussion of ideas in this context is more important than perfect language ability.
"very often find their English is too poor to make good progress" - I think this is a product of their arrogance and belief that fees get degrees. They do everything possible to get into courses at (and even below) the absolute minimum qualification level. As I always tell my students, at a 6.0 or 6.5 level in IELTS their study at a foreign university would be extremely difficult. I encourage them to continue to study English in China (or abroad if they're financially capable) until they reach 7.0 or even 7.5, and that's for undergraduate studies.
"The universities know the English language tests the Chinese take here do not really equip them properly, but the would-be students do not until they arrive (and have paid the money)." - I disagree with this. First, it's not "the test" that equips them for their study... it's their preparation (in China) for foreign study.
Over a number of years of study in various courses at 3 universities in Australia between 1988 and 1999 I noticed that there seemed to be a significant change in the make-up of the Asian student population. Initially a large proportion of the Asian students were the type that went into the library at 7am and came out at 10pm. However, over time that changed, they became a minority (although numbers undoubtedly increased) and the proportional majority were the playboy/playgirl type who were merrily being cool on mummy and daddy's hard earned (?) dollars... The majority of these were seemingly mainland Chinese.
I think the GAC type programs can be an effective type of preparation but the DOS and teachers need the freedom to enforce standards in China (or elsewhere) so that the students that leave the program are uni-ready.
LFA |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
arioch36
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 3589
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 3:25 pm Post subject: |
|
|
GAC righ now is still capable of being recommended. I am teaching it this year. The typical pressure of if students fail we lose money still exists. The idea that the DOS must be a laowai seems to help. Can the owners control their greed, and keep standards high for a while?
owners I include the Chinese school owners, and the owners of GAC themselves |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
englishgibson
Joined: 09 Mar 2005
Posts: 4345
|
| Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 11:19 am Post subject: |
|
|
good follow-ups guys
arioch, some nice posts on this thread...my GAC classes are in a real conflict of interest with TOEFL or IELTS that are a part of the program... students often choose to ignore the GAC classes 'cause the language proficiency exam is more important to them..but that's for another thread i guess
the idea of a DOS "must be a laowai" seems to have been tampered with around china...surely, the IDEA sells well with students' parents
| Quote: |
| Can the owners control their greed, and keep standards high for a while? |
that is THE QUESTION
cheers and beers to our discussion on |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
englishgibson
Joined: 09 Mar 2005
Posts: 4345
|
| Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 9:43 am Post subject: |
|
|
ok guys, i hope this thread'll come alive 'cause there's seemingly a great competition in between those two .... further more, it seems that there're more and more students interested in TOEFL and in the US as some have already mentioned on before...i'm just feeling some hostilities towards IELTS and UK now .. or, is it just chinese influence there
cheers and beers |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
waxwing
Joined: 29 Jun 2003
Posts: 719
Location: China
|
| Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 4:44 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Joe C. wrote: |
| englishgibson wrote: |
afghanistan..to major in pyrotechnics 
a few months ago i watched a program on one of those chinese channels (can't remember which one) with ch-western uni grads that've (actually)returned to china..from those lovely grads tv interviews i could see how much they learnt..they tried some english on and off, but whatever they said did not really make much of a sense...what i could understand though was that they had troubles finding jobs back in their homeland..maybe, they chose those kinda ones to raise awarness in this lovely country with unis filled up to the limit 
cheers and beers to both english language proficiency exams in china that face such a pressure of the chinese market (and who knows who else) to pass some students for abroad studies |
During IELTS interviews, back before they tightened the examiner frame, it was common to explore the candidates educational background and desires for studying abroad. The vast majority were not graduated from decent universities in China. The top ten reasons why they chose the UK over another country:
1. Low admissions standards;
2. Easy to graduate;
3. 1-year masters programs;
4. Overall cheaper that the US, Canada or Australia;
5. Once you get to the UK everybody speaks Chinese;
6. No visa turn-downs;
7. Plenty of Chinese classmates to help you cheat;
8. No GREs;
9. Moon is rounder in the UK than in China.
10. Only other choice is TV University in China. |
Before I start, excuse the length. The reason I write a lot is because I can write fast and because I find this subject very interesting. I won't be offended if you don't read it all
At first glance, I found your list of "advantages" for the UK shocking. But without getting into a big emotive argument, it's mostly the 1st 3 points that I want to argue about, because I see this kind of (what I see as) misconception a lot, and I think it's worth discussing.
The level of specialist knowledge on entry to a British University, having passed A-levels, is much higher than the level required to enter an American University. I'm not talking about the level of talent required, I'm talking about the level of specialist knowledge. A-levels represent a huge amount of specialization.
Now this goes on to explain, to some extent, the difference with 1 year Masters. After my Bachelors' in Mathematics in the UK, even though I did Joint Honours with Physics (which actually represents 4/3 of a degree in total), I know for a fact that I had WAY more knowledge than a typical "major" in Mathematics in the States. I see evidence of this again and again. The two degree systems are entirely different animals. THAT's why a Masters' degree in the UK can be one year.
And there's more. Your comment about GRE looks ludicrous to me, from my perspective of Maths/Science. I can guarantee you that anyone with a 1st (that's the top level) in their 2ND year of BSc Maths or Physics will be able to pass the American GRE Maths easily. Heck, we've got a few super high flyers in our Chinese school here, 18 years old, just passed the Cambridge University Maths entrance exam with the highest possible grades, they'd even be able to do some of it (well I'd have to go back and check the sample GRE papers I saw, that might be pushing it a bit far ). But: Maths GRE is INCREDIBLY watered down compared to what I did at University in Manchester.
Cost: I nearly fell off my chair when I saw you write "cheap" about UK education. But then I saw "overall" so you're probably talking about taking into account the lower overall time.
Notwithstanding the last few weeks, the strength of the pound sterling has been a big problem for the Chinese thinking about going to the UK. It's been my experience the last few years, that Chinese students who compare the British route with the American route tend to complain about higher costs in the UK.
For tuition, I think the UK is generally quite a bit higher, but I am aware that this issue is very complicated because there are a few very, very top Universities in the US which charge very high fees.
Overall though, it seems to me that you are putting down the English system based on weak reasoning and mostly (I see this again and again) not understanding the difference between the systems and assuming they are in the same in certain ways that they are NOT the same at all.
The right reason to put down the education system in England, from the perspective of a prospective Chinese student are, in no particular order:
1. It is more expensive on a like-for-like basis to get educated in the UK, albeit you will (usually) be finished sooner.
2. Unless you can get into Oxford or Cambridge, you will get basically no brand-name recognition for your degree from the UK (even though Imperial, by some measures has just as high a rating. LSE is another one, to be fair). In the US, you can cast the net a little wider and still get some brand-name recognition.
3. Since so many Chinese students are fixated on getting marketable degrees in Business, Economics, Management and the like, the U.S. probably quite rightly has the edge in these fields.
4. Cost of living! Rent in particular is much higher in the UK, but also other every day costs are higher.
5. US degrees involve a broader array of studies in different areas. Is this an advantage or a disadvantage? Who knows, but there are a fair number of our students who are going down the "Engineering at Imperial" route because they're getting a top notch degree in an area where their weakness in English is going to put them at only minimal disadvantage.
6. Another very important area I think is visa, working and residence status. If anyone can clarify the difference between the two countries on this I'd like to hear. I do know that foreign students are allowed to work during their degrees, but I guess more interesting is what, if anything, they're allowed to do afterwards. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Joe C.
Joined: 08 May 2003
Posts: 993
Location: Witness Protection Program
|
| Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 6:09 am Post subject: |
|
|
| waxwing wrote: |
| Joe C. wrote: |
| englishgibson wrote: |
afghanistan..to major in pyrotechnics
a few months ago i watched a program on one of those chinese channels (can't remember which one) with ch-western uni grads that've (actually)returned to china..from those lovely grads tv interviews i could see how much they learnt..they tried some english on and off, but whatever they said did not really make much of a sense...what i could understand though was that they had troubles finding jobs back in their homeland..maybe, they chose those kinda ones to raise awarness in this lovely country with unis filled up to the limit
cheers and beers to both english language proficiency exams in china that face such a pressure of the chinese market (and who knows who else) to pass some students for abroad studies |
During IELTS interviews, back before they tightened the examiner frame, it was common to explore the candidates educational background and desires for studying abroad. The vast majority were not graduated from decent universities in China. The top ten reasons why they chose the UK over another country:
1. Low admissions standards;
2. Easy to graduate;
3. 1-year masters programs;
4. Overall cheaper that the US, Canada or Australia;
5. Once you get to the UK everybody speaks Chinese;
6. No visa turn-downs;
7. Plenty of Chinese classmates to help you cheat;
8. No GREs;
9. Moon is rounder in the UK than in China.
10. Only other choice is TV University in China. |
Before I start, excuse the length. The reason I write a lot is because I can write fast and because I find this subject very interesting. I won't be offended if you don't read it all
At first glance, I found your list of "advantages" for the UK shocking. But without getting into a big emotive argument, it's mostly the 1st 3 points that I want to argue about, because I see this kind of (what I see as) misconception a lot, and I think it's worth discussing.
The level of specialist knowledge on entry to a British University, having passed A-levels, is much higher than the level required to enter an American University. I'm not talking about the level of talent required, I'm talking about the level of specialist knowledge. A-levels represent a huge amount of specialization.
Now this goes on to explain, to some extent, the difference with 1 year Masters. After my Bachelors' in Mathematics in the UK, even though I did Joint Honours with Physics (which actually represents 4/3 of a degree in total), I know for a fact that I had WAY more knowledge than a typical "major" in Mathematics in the States. I see evidence of this again and again. The two degree systems are entirely different animals. THAT's why a Masters' degree in the UK can be one year.
And there's more. Your comment about GRE looks ludicrous to me, from my perspective of Maths/Science. I can guarantee you that anyone with a 1st (that's the top level) in their 2ND year of BSc Maths or Physics will be able to pass the American GRE Maths easily. Heck, we've got a few super high flyers in our Chinese school here, 18 years old, just passed the Cambridge University Maths entrance exam with the highest possible grades, they'd even be able to do some of it (well I'd have to go back and check the sample GRE papers I saw, that might be pushing it a bit far ). But: Maths GRE is INCREDIBLY watered down compared to what I did at University in Manchester.
Cost: I nearly fell off my chair when I saw you write "cheap" about UK education. But then I saw "overall" so you're probably talking about taking into account the lower overall time. |
I think you are overlooking the fact that we are talking about Chinese students going from China to the UK to study. Specificially, I am talking about those going for a masters degree.
From that perspective, GREs are not required and most Chinese students wish to avoid the GRE because they struggle with the language and vocabulary skills necessary to get higher scores required by competitive universities.
A one year masters program is not only easier, but inherently less expensive than a 3 year program in the US. Not only do they save money, but they save time which they could otherwise use to generate income.
Admissions standards in the UK are low for foreign students at the post-graduate level with notablke exceptions of Oxford, Cambridge and possibly a couple of others. Nobody gets refused as long as they can pay the tuition and, unlike in the US, everbody gets a visa.
UK schools operate much like Chinese universities on a post-graduate level in the anybody who enters has an almost 100% chance of graduating. This is true for foreign students, but as for local students I do not know. But then again we are not talking about local students anyhow. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
waxwing
Joined: 29 Jun 2003
Posts: 719
Location: China
|
| Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 3:03 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Joe C. wrote: |
I think you are overlooking the fact that we are talking about Chinese students going from China to the UK to study. Specificially, I am talking about those going for a masters degree.
From that perspective, GREs are not required and most Chinese students wish to avoid the GRE because they struggle with the language and vocabulary skills necessary to get higher scores required by competitive universities.
A one year masters program is not only easier, but inherently less expensive than a 3 year program in the US. Not only do they save money, but they save time which they could otherwise use to generate income.
Admissions standards in the UK are low for foreign students at the post-graduate level with notablke exceptions of Oxford, Cambridge and possibly a couple of others. Nobody gets refused as long as they can pay the tuition and, unlike in the US, everbody gets a visa.
UK schools operate much like Chinese universities on a post-graduate level in the anybody who enters has an almost 100% chance of graduating. This is true for foreign students, but as for local students I do not know. But then again we are not talking about local students anyhow. |
Joe:
Seems to me you make a few good points there. In particular, I very much agree that somehow within the whole system in the US (and it goes all the way back to SATs) it much more difficult for the Chinese student to avoid being impacted by his/her language problems. In the UK system, and I think again it's to do with this issue of specialisation (pls forgive my British spelling ), there may be more opportunities for someone with a lower level of English. Even then, there are minimum standards and I believe they are enforced.
Now for some more disagreement:
You say "a one year masters is inherently easier and less expensive than a 3 year in the US". Sure, but what I was trying to flesh out in detail in my previous post is that you cannot make this comparison. Forgive the hoary cliche, but apples and oranges. The *end point* is generally comparable in terms of level of achievement, but the end point of an undergraduate degree is not, because of the specialization issue and because of the different level at which students enter undergraduate studies.
All that being said, the idea of entering a Masters program in the UK after (I presume?) a Chinese undergraduate degree does make a lot of sense to me, because, as you say, you're greatly cutting down the cost of spending time abroad.
Since I'm not involved in that in my work, though, I don't have experience of how it works in practice.
But my main point is that the REASON a 1 year Masters in the UK looks more attractive to a Chinese student is NOT because it is a LOWER QUALITY MASTERS, but because it fits much better in with what they need.
To put it another way, the beginning of a postgrad course in the US is really filling in the gaps that a UK student would have covered in 2nd and 3rd year undergrad. (again, specialization...)
Moving on, you say:
| Quote: |
| Anybody who enters has a 100% chance of graduating". |
Be fair for a minute - you understand you are accusing the British University system of a huge level of corruption here.
And I know you're talking about foreigners, but still.
You're saying anybody can get in, and anybody can graduate, that there are no academic standards.
When I was in Russia I heard stories of professors posting price lists outside their offices. You are basically saying it's like that in the UK.
To be frank, I think you're talking nonsense there, and I think the burden of proof is with you. I haven't heard stories of degrees being bought in the UK. Do you have evidence, in particular, evidence that corruption is more widespread in the UK than the US? Otherwise it just boils down to an insult.
In my experience, both as a Bachelors' student, a Masters student and now as a teacher of students going to the UK, I see nothing to suggest you're right, notwithstanding I don't deny that money and greed create a certain "colouring" of the process. I just don't see how you pin that more on the UK than the US.
I have also been at pains to point out that what looks like lower standards in the UK academically may not be at all, and may even be quite the opposite.
About visas you're probably quite right. From what I heard, from the perspective of a prospective University entrant, it is indeed more problematic with the US than the UK. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Joe C.
Joined: 08 May 2003
Posts: 993
Location: Witness Protection Program
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 1:47 am Post subject: |
|
|
| waxwing wrote: |
Now for some more disagreement:
You say "a one year masters is inherently easier and less expensive than a 3 year in the US". Sure, but what I was trying to flesh out in detail in my previous post is that you cannot make this comparison. Forgive the hoary cliche, but apples and oranges. The *end point* is generally comparable in terms of level of achievement, but the end point of an undergraduate degree is not, because of the specialization issue and because of the different level at which students enter undergraduate studies. |
I agree. But it is not I that make the comparision, it is the Chinese student and the factors they consider are time and $. They do not, should they even be able to, let the observations you made enter the picture.
| Quote: |
Be fair for a minute - you understand you are accusing the British University system of a huge level of corruption here.
And I know you're talking about foreigners, but still.
You're saying anybody can get in, and anybody can graduate, that there are no academic standards. |
I think there are two standards: one for foreigners and one for local students, though they may not be institutionalized across the board.
I think most people who have been in China for extended periods of time must personally know scores of Chinese students from some of the worst universities in China who go to the UK for a masters and none of them come back without it. I have actually seen dissertations and other minor papers these students submitted and they were, quite frankly, laughable. Yet they graduated.
With immigration tightly in check in the UK (or at least much more than in the US), it wouldn't be wild speculation to suggest that professors know certain students will not remain in the UK and letting them go home with a degree is to some extent sympathetic. I wouldn't term this corruption. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
englishgibson
Joined: 09 Mar 2005
Posts: 4345
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 11:09 am Post subject: |
|
|
I'd suspect some western and Chinese unis are in on some kind of a scam here. There're some Chinese unis that offer programs in China with an "extension" or whatever further studies abroad. Then, students at Chinese unis take up these proficiency exam courses and tests prior to their departures abroad. China's a hot market for education and there're loads of opportunities around. Needless to say that Chinese higher education cannot cater to the needs of its people.
| Quote: |
| With immigration tightly in check in the UK (or at least much more than in the US), it wouldn't be wild speculation to suggest that professors know certain students will not remain in the UK and letting them go home with a degree is to some extent sympathetic. |
I bet those students get their lovely degrees at departures level of the Heathrow Airport. Regarding that "sympathetic", I'd rephrase it as PLEASURE DOING BUSINESS WITH YOU.
Cheers and beers to TOEFL and IELTS money makers as well as to Chinese educational system that's found yet another way to make some extra buck
_____________________________________________________________
Can a Chinese employer see any differences in between Chinese or western degrees  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
This page is maintained by the one and only Dave Sperling.
Contact Dave's ESL Cafe
Copyright © 2018 Dave Sperling. All Rights Reserved.
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
